EP 7 suggestions

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Netherlands edeholland
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

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Post by edeholland »

princeofcarthage wrote:Correct way is to balance on non tp maps, that would result in tp being a similar boost to every civ rather than a lifeline.
Except a trade post is stronger for one civ than for another, so it won't be a similar boost. It will completely change the balance.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by scarm »

I also doubt "perfect" or true balance can be achieved at all with 14 different civs with different units and different playstyles. From my impression as a viewer, most civs seemed decently balanced in the NWC, with a few maybe a bit on the weak side and others a bit on the strong but overall decent balance. Also imo diarougas proposed changes seem reasonable, not talking balance because i can't really judge that, but in terms of the extent of the changes. Two of the changes i personally hate about EP are the different crates for Iro (even though necessary i guess) and the Tipi for Sioux, since they completely change how the civs are played. No point for me even trying to learn them, because i would have to learn 2 civs instead of one essentially. Should be avoided imo for new/unexperienced players sake.

edit: Just to elaborate: at lower ranks you obviously also have to play RE, because there are no games on EP. Nerfs such as reduced Uhlan HP or Jan HP, while they are impactful because of breakpoints aren't that noticeable in that regard. I am for example focussing on Otto and i can do the exact same thing in EP as i do in RE, except my Jans, Abus and Mams are a bit weaker, but that doesn't change the general gameplan. That is not the case with Iro and Sioux.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by princeofcarthage »

edeholland wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Correct way is to balance on non tp maps, that would result in tp being a similar boost to every civ rather than a lifeline.
Except a trade post is stronger for one civ than for another, so it won't be a similar boost. It will completely change the balance.

Read again.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by yemshi »

Yeah, read again.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

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Post by edeholland »

I read it again. How would balancing on non-tp maps result in a tp being a similar boost for every civ?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

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Post by Goodspeed »

Astaroth wrote:Why nerf walling even further? As far as I can see, it has been nerfed many times already and most top players don't or rarely use it beyond maybe a small piece here or there.

Additionally, walls in aoe3 are much less popular or even useful than e. g. in aoe2. In aoe2, most top players will wall in most tournament games, yet nobody supports a wall nerf. Aoe3 already makes turtling very difficult because of the limited hunts and mines which force you to leave base.
The problem is that differences in scaling between the civs are so big that the natural counter to turtle styles (taking all resources on the map and outbooming them) doesn't always work in AoE3. It is not okay then to look at a wall as an impassable barrier and go about your business, as you often would in AoE2. Often walls are barriers that you actually need to break through in order to have any chance of winning, lest the opponent outscales you so much that your early map control didn't matter. And then their high HP becomes a potentially game breaking issue.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

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Post by Goodspeed »

edeholland wrote:I read it again. How would balancing on non-tp maps result in a tp being a similar boost for every civ?
Yeah it definitely wouldn't
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

As well as the accuracy of bow units being increased, it would also be nice to see their multipliers tweaked. Xbow are so bad it's unbelievable.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:As well as the accuracy of bow units being increased, it would also be nice to see their multipliers tweaked. Xbow are so bad it's unbelievable.

xbwos are not that bad, they're good in some situations.
Anyway, increasing their accuracy is already a solid buff, no need to change the multipliers.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:As well as the accuracy of bow units being increased, it would also be nice to see their multipliers tweaked. Xbow are so bad it's unbelievable.

xbwos are not that bad, they're good in some situations.
Anyway, increasing their accuracy is already a solid buff, no need to change the multipliers.

What about multipliers for longbow with veteran up or something ?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:As well as the accuracy of bow units being increased, it would also be nice to see their multipliers tweaked. Xbow are so bad it's unbelievable.

xbwos are not that bad, they're good in some situations.
Anyway, increasing their accuracy is already a solid buff, no need to change the multipliers.

What about multipliers for longbow with veteran up or something ?

I think lb should get a multiplier with arsenal tech or yeomen because you can't counter strong musk units like sepoys as Brit.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Astaroth »

Goodspeed wrote:
Astaroth wrote:Why nerf walling even further? As far as I can see, it has been nerfed many times already and most top players don't or rarely use it beyond maybe a small piece here or there.

Additionally, walls in aoe3 are much less popular or even useful than e. g. in aoe2. In aoe2, most top players will wall in most tournament games, yet nobody supports a wall nerf. Aoe3 already makes turtling very difficult because of the limited hunts and mines which force you to leave base.
The problem is that differences in scaling between the civs are so big that the natural counter to turtle styles (taking all resources on the map and outbooming them) doesn't always work in AoE3. It is not okay then to look at a wall as an impassable barrier and go about your business, as you often would in AoE2. Often walls are barriers that you actually need to break through in order to have any chance of winning, lest the opponent outscales you so much that your early map control didn't matter. And then their high HP becomes a potentially game breaking issue.



But is outscaling really as much of an issue? Sure, in very lategame it may be, but even normal turtling doesn't get you there. From what I can see, "outscaling" doesn't usually happen because one civ has a stronger eco and better units and can't do anything about it, but rather when one player turtles up and booms and the other doesn't try to properly boom of his own (with eco and unit upgrade cards, multiple TCs, all TPs) but instead sends 10 pikes, 7 skirma or 4 huss and then wonders why the opponent has +40 eco and FU units.

Map control gives lots of advantages in aoe3, TPs, coin mines, hunts etc. How many games are really won because eg Japan has uncounterable units (culv falc anyone?) and not because the opponent just wants to go for a bit skirm goon 2falc FF and is unwilling to adapt to a proper boom himself?
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Goodspeed »

Astaroth wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Astaroth wrote:Why nerf walling even further? As far as I can see, it has been nerfed many times already and most top players don't or rarely use it beyond maybe a small piece here or there.

Additionally, walls in aoe3 are much less popular or even useful than e. g. in aoe2. In aoe2, most top players will wall in most tournament games, yet nobody supports a wall nerf. Aoe3 already makes turtling very difficult because of the limited hunts and mines which force you to leave base.
The problem is that differences in scaling between the civs are so big that the natural counter to turtle styles (taking all resources on the map and outbooming them) doesn't always work in AoE3. It is not okay then to look at a wall as an impassable barrier and go about your business, as you often would in AoE2. Often walls are barriers that you actually need to break through in order to have any chance of winning, lest the opponent outscales you so much that your early map control didn't matter. And then their high HP becomes a potentially game breaking issue.
But is outscaling really as much of an issue? Sure, in very lategame it may be, but even normal turtling doesn't get you there. From what I can see, "outscaling" doesn't usually happen because one civ has a stronger eco and better units and can't do anything about it, but rather when one player turtles up and booms and the other doesn't try to properly boom of his own (with eco and unit upgrade cards, multiple TCs, all TPs) but instead sends 10 pikes, 7 skirma or 4 huss and then wonders why the opponent has +40 eco and FU units.
They do this because they have to. No one is "wondering" why the opponent has more eco, rather a choice was made to try and kill him rather than match his eco. This is often the necessary choice, which is exactly the problem.

Some examples: Brits can have 40 vills at 6 minutes. Dutch can have 5 banks not much later. Japan can boom very fast, and their unit scaling is even better. Leaving these civs alone for too long is not an option, no matter how much booming you do yourself, because you are unable to boom as quickly or as efficiently as they can. If turtling was enabled by high HP walls, these civs would have an easy time securing enough resources to work with and would either hit you with an unholdable timing as you struggle to match their economy, or simply beat you to the later ages and win from there.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

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Post by n0el »

Walls are in a good place where they are now. Good enough to be a barrier but not too strong you can't break through them.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Kawapasaka »

Agreed. Walls are still useful IF you actually have something behind them. They're not an infinite delayer.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Riotcoke »

My only concern about walls is they're too quick to build at the moment simply as everyone deletes the pillars which was the main time consuming part of building walls.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by bepsi »

It could be argued that the biggest problem with walls is not that they're inherently too strong, which is historically accurate - enabling a tiny band of brave men to fend of entire invading hordes, but rather that they are way too cheap. Imagine the intricate wall system of Constantinople costing less than a stable. :hmm:
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

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Post by edeholland »

My problem with walls is that they are hardly an investment. For the cost of 2 musketeers (in terms of villager seconds) you can wall of your entire base, while it's easy to gain the cost of 2 musketeers back by not having to care about raids and getting an advantage in fights.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by amiggo1999 »

I agree with the above
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Kaiserklein »

Walls are still lame because they're basically free and you can drop them in 2 sec.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Astaroth »

Yeah, but walls are also extremely easy to take down. Barely any top player even uses them in tournament games, so they are clearly not OP.

It just seems to me that some players absolutely hate anyone even theoretically being able to successfully use walls, Idk why.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by edeholland »

Astaroth wrote:It just seems to me that some players absolutely hate anyone even theoretically being able to successfully use walls, Idk why.
Walls aren't interesting to fight. They don't require placement as careful as other buildings, they don't reward the player for taking them down (no xp given and hardly any resources worth) and they don't lead to interesting fights with micro and positioning, since you just stand next to them and siege.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by dansil92 »

Not to bring up wars of liberty but they nerfed the cost of walls to 12 wood per segment and that seemed to be a reasonable balance point. The trouble now is that they are far too cheap. The build time could be looked at too i suppose but 5 wood for one of those large wall segments is just far to cost effective to NOT use
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Kaiserklein »

Astaroth wrote:Yeah, but walls are also extremely easy to take down. Barely any top player even uses them in tournament games, so they are clearly not OP.

It just seems to me that some players absolutely hate anyone even theoretically being able to successfully use walls, Idk why.


This is wrong, we use walls all the time. We don't really wall up the whole base, because it's just a shitty way to play the game.
But dropping a last second wall is just op. Like you're getting pushed in your base as japan dutch or something like that, and you have mostly RI while opponent has cav, and you just aged. Np, drop a couple wall segments in yur base and hold easily. Mitoe and me do it a lot, it's really lame. You can do the same to protect your falconets.
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Re: EP 7 suggestions

Post by Astaroth »

Yeah, but they are part of the game, they have a tradition in the aoe series and they are an integral part of one main pillar of RTS: turtling.

Why make them even more obsolete than they already are (if they weren't, lots of top pros would use them), which would just lead to further streamlining the game?

It just seems to me that some players believe that every single strategy which depends on novelty/surprise /innovation/new ideas/using particular civ advantages/outside the box and that goes beyond just winning due to superior micro, standard BO or bot execution (skirm goon ff) should be nerfed into the ground.

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