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Argentina Riotcoke
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26 Jul 2019, 12:35

One thing about this poll actually, how do you make sure these people are active on EP? There's a decent amount of players on ESOC that don't use EP at all.
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New Zealand zoom
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26 Jul 2019, 12:37

First, I don't reject anyone based on my perception of their EP activity. Second, I know, from looking at respondents' names, that an extreme majority of respondents are in fact active EP users.

For the record, I've only removed two responses, so far, out of more than fifty.
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26 Jul 2019, 12:39

Poll results are largely expected, to me. I'm surprised by Dutch and Iroquois ratings, though.
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Blue-haired girl being slain

'This is no declaration, I just thought I'd let you know goodbye'
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'It is mightier than swords. I could kill you sure, but I could only make you cry with these words'
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Jul 2019, 12:41

zoom wrote:Poll results are largely expected, to me. I'm surprised by Dutch and Iroquois ratings, though.

Dutch is average, what did you expect? Low tier or top tier?

As I said, Iroquois is one of the best civs. Iirc, kaiser even wants it to be nerfed, and I wouldn't be against it.
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New Zealand zoom
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26 Jul 2019, 12:43

I forgot to mention, I also think players have a tendency to exaggerate votes, to influence balancing policy – another form of bias, but a conscious one.
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Blue-haired girl being slain

'This is no declaration, I just thought I'd let you know goodbye'
Said the hero in the story
'It is mightier than swords. I could kill you sure, but I could only make you cry with these words'
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Jul 2019, 12:46

It's because the poll isn't well defined to be fair, as Somppu pointed out in the first page.
Apparently, 1 means "weakest" and 10 "strongest". There is a weakest civ and strongest civ, thus people should rate from 1 to 10.
I agree that it's a big issue though, because some people like you rate from 4 to 6, and this kind of vote doesn't really affect the outcome, while people like me rate from 3 to 9, which of course changes the outcome.

I think you should put less options next time, like "too weak", "a bit weak", "average", "a bit strong", and "too strong" as suggested. That way, "a bit weak" would be the same for everybody, and not 2 or 4 depending on the player.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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26 Jul 2019, 12:54

I rate from 4-10 typically
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Jul 2019, 12:56

Hazza54321 wrote:I rate from 4-10 typically

Yea, and it doesn't mean that consciously exaggerate your votes because you're biased. The issue is that the rating isn't well defined, that's it.
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Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 743
ESO: HUMMAN

26 Jul 2019, 13:01

Humble zoi OP btw its weird how people rate without info of map and Mu. Imo balance like this is tricky cos for example if u buff spain for being rated low, it can be a monster in 5 Tp maps and now people will rate it very high.
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Brazil Luciofrancosi
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Location: UK

26 Jul 2019, 13:19

I don't play on ep a lot but based on what I have seen on the NWC tournament this poll seems very accurate!!
It's a bit of a surprise that Aztec that was considered strong back them is now considered the weakest civ, and behind Spain!! I guess same happened with Japan since ppl now have them figured out!!
My question is,
Regarding Spain, what about buffing lancer stats, like adding an extra multiplier against infantry or something!! Spain main problem imo is that they have no skirm shipments, even with all the buffs they still feel weak!! And their only anti-infantry shipment is also countered by heavy infantry!!
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New Zealand zoom
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26 Jul 2019, 13:58

Luciofrancosi wrote:I don't play on ep a lot but based on what I have seen on the NWC tournament this poll seems very accurate!!
Especially considering the outstanding performance of Germans, on LAN.
Luciofrancosi wrote:Regarding Spain, what about buffing lancer stats, like adding an extra multiplier against infantry or something!! Spain main problem imo is that they have no skirm shipments, even with all the buffs they still feel weak!! And their only anti-infantry shipment is also countered by heavy infantry!!
The only Lancer buffs I'd consider are cost and range (and the latter is risky, since it also buffs shipments, which are already strong). Planning on adding +1 range to the Caballeros shipment. Might also test a 10 res cost buff, at some point.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

Blue-haired girl being slain

'This is no declaration, I just thought I'd let you know goodbye'
Said the hero in the story
'It is mightier than swords. I could kill you sure, but I could only make you cry with these words'
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France bwinner
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26 Jul 2019, 14:00

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
zoom wrote:By the grace of Goodspeed – the second known entity in the universe to have mastered Google Sheets – I am able to once again present you with these gorgeous graphs

Once again, thank you to all respondents, for the best turn-out ever – this bodes well!

Also, while I refuse to disclose the responses of others, for reference, I'm happy to share mine (land maps, only):

Aztecs: 4
British: 6
Chinese: 5
Dutch: 5
French: 5
Germans: 5
Indians: 5
Iroquois: 4
Japanese: 4
Ottomans: 4
Portuguese: 4
Russians: 5
Sioux: 5
Spanish: 4

Otto/Iro 4, really?
Are you aware that Iro is currently one of the best civilisations? You probably shouldn't have shared your response by the way, because it makes you biased.


I think that the overall results are quite accurate however.
Germany is top civ and Aztec is the worst civ. I'd say that Otto is underrated but that's it.

Apparently, there's an obvious tier 1:
Germany
India
Sioux
Brit
Iro
Russia
imo Otto should be in that top tier too

These civs should get a small nerf

Then, the tier 2:
China
Dutch
Otto (??)
France

These civs shouldn't be changed (personally I question Otto in tier 2).

Finally, the tier 3 :
Japan
Port
Spanish
Aztec

These civs are too weak, and deserve a buff.

I am surprised you want to do that many changes.
I would personnally only change top2 and bottom2 of the list (nerf ger/india and buff aztec/spain)
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Kiribati SirCallen
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26 Jul 2019, 14:07

bwinner wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
zoom wrote:By the grace of Goodspeed – the second known entity in the universe to have mastered Google Sheets – I am able to once again present you with these gorgeous graphs

Once again, thank you to all respondents, for the best turn-out ever – this bodes well!

Also, while I refuse to disclose the responses of others, for reference, I'm happy to share mine (land maps, only):

Aztecs: 4
British: 6
Chinese: 5
Dutch: 5
French: 5
Germans: 5
Indians: 5
Iroquois: 4
Japanese: 4
Ottomans: 4
Portuguese: 4
Russians: 5
Sioux: 5
Spanish: 4

Otto/Iro 4, really?
Are you aware that Iro is currently one of the best civilisations? You probably shouldn't have shared your response by the way, because it makes you biased.


I think that the overall results are quite accurate however.
Germany is top civ and Aztec is the worst civ. I'd say that Otto is underrated but that's it.

Apparently, there's an obvious tier 1:
Germany
India
Sioux
Brit
Iro
Russia
imo Otto should be in that top tier too

These civs should get a small nerf

Then, the tier 2:
China
Dutch
Otto (??)
France

These civs shouldn't be changed (personally I question Otto in tier 2).

Finally, the tier 3 :
Japan
Port
Spanish
Aztec

These civs are too weak, and deserve a buff.

I am surprised you want to do that many changes.
I would personnally only change top2 and bottom2 of the list (nerf ger/india and buff aztec/spain)

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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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26 Jul 2019, 14:09

Aztecs are not that low wtf ahah
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Jul 2019, 14:10

I'd buff Port slightly and unnerf Japan.
I'd also unbuf Russia and nerf Sioux/Iro too.
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New Zealand zoom
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26 Jul 2019, 14:11

Garja wrote:Aztecs are not that low wtf ahah
Just like Germans, a good example of bias, in this poll.

I do consider both civilizations relative outliers, though; Aztecs is in my bottom three, and Germans in my top three.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

Blue-haired girl being slain

'This is no declaration, I just thought I'd let you know goodbye'
Said the hero in the story
'It is mightier than swords. I could kill you sure, but I could only make you cry with these words'
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France [Armag] diarouga
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26 Jul 2019, 14:16

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Aztecs are not that low wtf ahah
Just like Germans, a good example of bias, in this poll.

I do consider both civilizations relative outliers, though.

The community is split on Germany. About half of the top 10 believes that Germany is the best civ.
Thus, you can't say that believing that Germany is the best is just a bias.
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Finland somppukunkku
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26 Jul 2019, 14:20

The split is even between strong-op. not weak-strong.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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26 Jul 2019, 14:20

Eh no. Port needs some unit buff but also vill cost shit revert . So unless we do both they're fine as they're since they are in line with French basically. Japan nerfs barely matter, while the shrine cost buff surprisinly help with all the no port cons builds. Japan isn't weak anyway. Russia seems in a good spot even tho rusket buff just makes rush stronger while not really helping much for the rest game of the game (unlike vill cost buff). Sioux and Iro don't need nerfs per se. Sioux design is still a bit shit and that's the thing to fix.

zoom wrote:Just like Germans, a good example of bias, in this poll.

I do consider both civilizations relative outliers, though.

But Aztecs are not outlier, they're pretty much average.
I think that instead of questioning civs strenght per se we should start considering civ design as inter-civ balance is ok but not all civs are equally viable in terms of playability.
Aztecs are a pain in the ass to play, especially in lag. And that's cause their units have garbage side stats (speed, rr, range) but super strong base stats (dps/multipliers). Units need are rework to have them in line with EP meta which is more "soft".
Sioux have nonsense mechanics such as building teepees with infantry by default. Also teepee gathering boost is kinda nonsense, or at least is that damn colored circle (seriously just use the native circle not the indian one :S).
Otto now have interesting eco options and reasonable army strenght but their abus both have too much range in fortress and also stupid rof. Jans probably get shitted super hard by strong cav (which they kinda already did).
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Italy gamevideo113
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26 Jul 2019, 14:27

The thing is, these polls aren't really super accurate. I wouldn't take them as a milestone for the next EP release.
General perception of a civ depends on many factors:
-Buffs/nerfs recieved;
-Top players' opinions;
-Tournament performance, which depends on the map pool;
-General trends;
-Personal preferences
-Other

Iro literally had one crate changed from food to wood (of a shipment you won't even always send anyway) and jumped from -0.50 to +0.54. Seriously? Probably people started to play them more and realized that they were not that bad after all. Other way around for ports. This just goes to show that this kind of polls are a bit arbitrary, also because there are no guidelines on what votes should be used. Personally i used from 6 to 9, Zoi used from 4 to 6, diarouga from 3 to 9, Hazza from 4 to 10. The results of these polls are hardly relevant for the middle civs as far as i am concerned. Probably even the top/bottom civs have exaggerated numbers.
Fortunately though it seems to me that the civs are being looked at more from the in-game perspective when changes are suggested, rather than from the analystic/statistical point of view. I hope the next polls will be structured a bit differently.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Location: France

26 Jul 2019, 14:28

Reverting the gathering boost is an interesting option.
We also need to buff port's units as Garja said, and put the +2 abus range in age 4. I guess buffing jans vs cav is an option too.
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Canada Mitoe
ESOC Media Team
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26 Jul 2019, 20:32

gamevideo113 wrote:The thing is, these polls aren't really super accurate. I wouldn't take them as a milestone for the next EP release.
General perception of a civ depends on many factors:
-Buffs/nerfs recieved;
-Top players' opinions;
-Tournament performance, which depends on the map pool;
-General trends;
-Personal preferences
-Other

Iro literally had one crate changed from food to wood (of a shipment you won't even always send anyway) and jumped from -0.50 to +0.54. Seriously? Probably people started to play them more and realized that they were not that bad after all. Other way around for ports. This just goes to show that this kind of polls are a bit arbitrary, also because there are no guidelines on what votes should be used. Personally i used from 6 to 9, Zoi used from 4 to 6, diarouga from 3 to 9, Hazza from 4 to 10. The results of these polls are hardly relevant for the middle civs as far as i am concerned. Probably even the top/bottom civs have exaggerated numbers.
Fortunately though it seems to me that the civs are being looked at more from the in-game perspective when changes are suggested, rather than from the analystic/statistical point of view. I hope the next polls will be structured a bit differently.

The range you use doesn’t really matter for reasons that have been explained in previous polls and that I don’t really care to explain again and so I will attempt to summon the thoughtful Martin (@Goodspeed) to do it for me.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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ESO: diarouga
Location: France

26 Jul 2019, 20:36

Mitoe wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:The thing is, these polls aren't really super accurate. I wouldn't take them as a milestone for the next EP release.
General perception of a civ depends on many factors:
-Buffs/nerfs recieved;
-Top players' opinions;
-Tournament performance, which depends on the map pool;
-General trends;
-Personal preferences
-Other

Iro literally had one crate changed from food to wood (of a shipment you won't even always send anyway) and jumped from -0.50 to +0.54. Seriously? Probably people started to play them more and realized that they were not that bad after all. Other way around for ports. This just goes to show that this kind of polls are a bit arbitrary, also because there are no guidelines on what votes should be used. Personally i used from 6 to 9, Zoi used from 4 to 6, diarouga from 3 to 9, Hazza from 4 to 10. The results of these polls are hardly relevant for the middle civs as far as i am concerned. Probably even the top/bottom civs have exaggerated numbers.
Fortunately though it seems to me that the civs are being looked at more from the in-game perspective when changes are suggested, rather than from the analystic/statistical point of view. I hope the next polls will be structured a bit differently.

The range you use doesn’t really matter for reasons that have been explained in previous polls and that I don’t really care to explain again and so I will attempt to summon the thoughtful Martin (@Goodspeed) to do it for me.

The range you use does matter.
Let's say one guy thinks Germany is op and Aztec is weak, and an other guy think Germany is weak and Aztec is op.

The first guy rates :
Germany 10
Aztecs 1

The second guy rates :
Germany 4
Aztecs 6

In the end you have :
Germany 7
Aztecs 3.5

So what's the conclusion ? Both these guys have the exact opposite opinion, so Germany and Aztecs should be, on average, as good but the poll shows that Germany is op while Aztec is weak.
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
Howdah
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ESO: SoldieR
Location: Chi City

26 Jul 2019, 21:18

The conclusion is guy 1 thinks there is a large difference in civ strength and guy 2 thinks there is less of a gap in strength although he thinks a different civ is the stronger one.

It might be helpful to have standard deviation shown. That tells you where people have a large difference of opinion on certain civs.
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
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Posts: 9925
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

26 Jul 2019, 21:21

IAmSoldieR wrote:The conclusion is guy 1 thinks there is a large difference in civ strength and guy 2 thinks there is less of a gap in strength although he thinks a different civ is the stronger one.

Not really.
The conclusion is that one guy rates from 1 to 10 because 1 means "weakest" and 10 means "strongest" and the 2nd guy does what you think.

Zoi was complaining about this, claiming that people tend to exaggerate the difference. The issue is that the range is not well defined, to me 1 to 10 means that you should rate from 1 to 10.

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