EP 7.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

  • Quote

Post by Rikikipu »

As I have mentioned, many times, this year, EP7 will begin to also focus on improvements to the game, including issues of viability. Having core game features marginalized - let alone so many of them - is simply unacceptable. I have no illusions of making everything equally viable; only aspirations of making some things at least situationally viable, bit by bit.

@zoom thank you for this. You can't know how much I like this approach. Improving the stats of some low tiers units (mostly melee units) is going to be (I hope) refreshing for unit composition and so, for strategic options. Can't wait to see that happening!
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Imperial Noob »

Great changes!

One tweak I would like to see is that 2 castles seems too strong when compared to a 2 outpost shipment for euro civs in terms of res value, especially since the former doubles as 2 artillery foundries, so could 2 outpost wagons for Europeans/TWC civs grant them +100w "for walls" as well?
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by gamevideo113 »

In general i think 2 outpost wagons is a bit better than what most people give it credit for, since if you count the time it takes to gather 500w (62 vs roughly), build two outposts (50 seconds each so 100 VS), and the potential vill walking time that occurs in the process i think it's not too inappropriate to approximate the value of the shipment at 600w. But as you say it's still worse than 2 castles, so a small buff wouldn't be bad.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
Norway aqwer
Dragoon
Posts: 411
Joined: Aug 27, 2017

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by aqwer »

@zoom
Spahi rr buff to 20% is decent but for only two shipment tops (5 age3 and 6 age4) and maybe age4 age up.
Why not make them trainable in stable with ( 350 res, 4 pop - Kaiser) adjusted cost and remove auto upgrade and healing.
Or the lesser solution is to add an infinite shipment in age IV.
#trainableSpahi
No Flag Astaroth
Howdah
Posts: 1037
Joined: Jul 21, 2019

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Astaroth »

W/regards to 20 range abus:

I don't really see them being used in tournaments that often at all. If they were truly OP, wouldn't Otto try harder to get them?

I feel like in almost all games, Otto in Age3 either don't make abus but only Jans, or they make abus but don't upgrade them to vet. In the few games that Otto get vet abus, they are strong on paper but not in context: at this point, the opponent already has 3x the eco and the military numbers usually as well.

I find it hard to imagine Otto having a sizable number of vet abus, enough anticav without either a) having already won the game (similar eco, full map control all TPs) or b) the opponent easily winning anyway due to 3x the eco/army.

It doesn't really make sense to compare Otto units to other civs', when Otto eco especially in midgame is so pathetic.
User avatar
Norway aqwer
Dragoon
Posts: 411
Joined: Aug 27, 2017

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by aqwer »

The other solution might be as bwinner suggested, is to make spahi available with "dance hall" card. Instead of Ronin Otto will be able to train spahi in saloon.
#trainableSpahi
No Flag almalek
Skirmisher
Posts: 164
Joined: May 3, 2015

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by almalek »

EP beta
User avatar
Kiribati princeofcarthage
Retired Contributor
Posts: 8861
Joined: Aug 28, 2015
Location: Milky Way!

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by princeofcarthage »

- Cassador ranged attack "rate-of-fire" increased from 3.0 to 3.5. Attack increased from 17 to 20
Technically you have decreased rate of fire, not increased.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
No Flag Astaroth
Howdah
Posts: 1037
Joined: Jul 21, 2019

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Astaroth »

@[Armag] diarouga : w/ regards to Iro, just based on your comment in the Iro discussion:

If Iro gets as many units as France, but 10 % stronger, despite having a weaker eco, doesn't that make sense? After all, Iro has a weaker, less scaling eco, so if they had the same unit quality, they would just die hard (same with Otto; otto with musks instead of jans and e.g. early skirms instead of abus would be trash). France has other advantages: 2 falc shipment, strong cuirs, better scaling, better eco, stronger vills.

I feel like Iro is a bit of a glass cannon, their eco is paper thin.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Astaroth wrote:@[Armag] diarouga : w/ regards to Iro, just based on your comment in the Iro discussion:

If Iro gets as many units as France, but 10 % stronger, despite having a weaker eco, doesn't that make sense? After all, Iro has a weaker, less scaling eco, so if they had the same unit quality, they would just die hard (same with Otto; otto with musks instead of jans and e.g. early skirms instead of abus would be trash). France has other advantages: 2 falc shipment, strong cuirs, better scaling, better eco, stronger vills.

I feel like Iro is a bit of a glass cannon, their eco is paper thin.

No it doesn't make sense, because Iro gets as many units, the map and 10% stronger units xD.
That's a balance issue, what are you supposed to do as France? You can't push because he has a better army, and if you wait he's going to have a better army anyway. How does eco matter when you get the same amount of units?
The only advantage you have in this MU is the falc shipment, but they just get sniped by musket riders and then you die.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Garja »

French have 2 falcs to push out and can go musk 2 facl cuir into skirm goon cuir.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

musk/falc/cuir against musket rider is suicide.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Garja »

By the time you have 2 falcs out iro has 10 musket riders at most.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by gamevideo113 »

The fact that france has steel traps and amalgamation is already a big deal. On top of that i think france can get away with having 15-20 goons only and focus more on skirm production, because a potential cav switch from iro is not that scary, if you exclude the 5 cuirs card. Also, forest prowlers are better, but they have less HP, so both skirms and FP take 11 shots to kill each other before cards.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gamevideo113 wrote: Also, forest prowlers are better, but they have less HP, so both skirms and FP take 11 shots to kill each other before cards.

Did you consider the WC bonus ?
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by gamevideo113 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote: Also, forest prowlers are better, but they have less HP, so both skirms and FP take 11 shots to kill each other before cards.

Did you consider the WC bonus ?

Lol :facepalm:

Anyway, this might be iro favored, but i don’t think it’s hopeless. I’d consider it a close matchup with a slight advantage to iro.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Kaiserklein »

gamevideo113 wrote:The fact that france has steel traps and amalgamation is already a big deal.

Steel traps is nice. However, merely thinking of getting amalgamation vs iro any early is delusional.

gamevideo113 wrote:On top of that i think france can get away with having 15-20 goons only and focus more on skirm production, because a potential cav switch from iro is not that scary, if you exclude the 5 cuirs card.

Iro has 3 good cav shipments, that's scary enough. Also there are plenty of builds involving dropping a stable in colonial and teching veterancy, so you can definitely have quite a few kanyas in early fort. Not to mention vet kanyas with warchief actually have 585 ranged hp, while a vet huss has only 480 ranged hp.

gamevideo113 wrote:Also, forest prowlers are better, but they have less HP, so both skirms and FP take 11 shots to kill each other before cards.

This can't be true. FPs literally have more hp and more attack than skirms when the warchief is nearby. And the warchief is always nearby.


Anyway you can't just make a list of advantages of both civs and say x civ is better. I could also list so many reasons why iro is so strong (musket riders, crackshot, warhut for mapcontrol, veterancy being 25%, skirm upgrades, etc), and it wouldn't prove shit.
The real thing is that out of experience, iro gets free mapcontrol in this match up, can pressure in colonial, sometimes even stagecoach, and then still have as many (if not more) units than france in fortress, while also having stronger units. And stuff like the 2 falcs or steel traps are really nice but it's simply not enough.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I just checked, FP have 158/20 vs 144/18 for skirms, not even close. And that's without war dance.
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by gamevideo113 »

Regardless of this specific matchup, i think a couple of slight nerfs to iro can’t hurt.
20% rr for musket riders and 10% aura for WC don’t really take anything away from the civ gameplay wise, so i’d be on board. Also it would be fair, since goons got their rr nerfed long ago.
I wouldn’t nerf the crackshot though, because that’s fun and rewarding. If anything, the war chief dance could take a bit more to revive him.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

  • Quote

Post by Mitoe »

I have a big problem with how some "bug fixes" are listed.

- Other players can no longer see if "2x" shipments have been sent, via deck inspection.

This change, for example, is such an impactful change. It's arguably not even a bug. It should be listed as a balance change. This was the same problem I had with the very first iteration of EP where the age 4 Japanese Shogunate was changed to granted 600xp instead of 1600xp and was listed as a bug fixes. Changes this large are balance changes regardless of whether or not they are truly bugs.


A lot of the other bug fixes I have other problems with (not because I think they affect balance all that much), but will go into more detail about them later since I don't really have time right now.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, need to list these 2 in the balance section not bug fixing.
User avatar
Germany Makrokosmos12
Skirmisher
Posts: 199
Joined: Aug 17, 2016
ESO: Templer12

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

Finally a really good patch. Was it that hard?
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:Finally a really good patch. Was it that hard?

Balance was overlooked though. It's more of a "design patch".
User avatar
Great Britain Riotcoke
Retired Contributor
ECL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 4088
Joined: May 7, 2019
ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Dorsetshire
Clan: UwU

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

Post by Riotcoke »

Mitoe wrote:I have a big problem with how some "bug fixes" are listed.

- Other players can no longer see if "2x" shipments have been sent, via deck inspection.

This change, for example, is such an impactful change. It's arguably not even a bug. It should be listed as a balance change. This was the same problem I had with the very first iteration of EP where the age 4 Japanese Shogunate was changed to granted 600xp instead of 1600xp and was listed as a bug fixes. Changes this large are balance changes regardless of whether or not they are truly bugs.


A lot of the other bug fixes I have other problems with (not because I think they affect balance all that much), but will go into more detail about them later since I don't really have time right now.

And the fact that it wasn't a bug in the first place.
Image

twitch.tv/stangoesdeepTV
User avatar
Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
ESOC Dev Team
Donator 05
Posts: 4513
Joined: Mar 31, 2015
ESO: EAGLEMUT
Clan: WPact

Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-08-15]

  • Quote

Post by EAGLEMUT »

You can't say something is not a bug just because it affects balance. By that logic, there have essentially never been any bugs in the game :hmm:
It seems absolutely clear to me that players aren't supposed to see on the UI what shipments are their opponents sending, it's an oversight of the x2 shipments introduced in TAD.
Image
momuuu wrote: ↑theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV