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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Aug 2019, 18:09

EAGLEMUT wrote:You can't say something is not a bug just because it affects balance. By that logic, there have essentially never been any bugs in the game :hmm:
It seems absolutely clear to me that players aren't supposed to see on the UI what shipments are their opponents sending, it's an oversight of the x2 shipments introduced in TAD.

It might be a bug but who cares?
I've never read the 5161651 list of fixed bugs (and it actually means that the mod team did an insane job) and nobody does. And when you read the balance changes, you want to see the shogunate huge nerf (it's a huge one), and the deck change.
The point is that any bug fix that affects the game balance should (also) be listed in the balance change list.
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Great Britain Riotcoke
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24 Aug 2019, 18:51

There's no way it passed QA testing, it's such a simple thing to see, by the same degree if you think it's a bug to see the 2x it's a bug to see the enemy's deck as a whole. It's simply Just a balance to japan's double shipments.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Aug 2019, 18:54

Pretty sure it would pass testing haha. Nobody checks the decks come on, and even if you do you might not notice the difference, like I didn't know about that before I read it in the H2O guide and I'm quite sure I played more than the testers.
Anyway, so many things passed testing, like getting 1 noble hut instead of 2 as Aztecs etc.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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24 Aug 2019, 18:55

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:You can't say something is not a bug just because it affects balance. By that logic, there have essentially never been any bugs in the game :hmm:
It seems absolutely clear to me that players aren't supposed to see on the UI what shipments are their opponents sending, it's an oversight of the x2 shipments introduced in TAD.

It might be a bug but who cares?
I've never read the 5161651 list of fixed bugs (and it actually means that the mod team did an insane job) and nobody does. And when you read the balance changes, you want to see the shogunate huge nerf (it's a huge one), and the deck change.

Sounds like you're arguing a bit against yourself. You're saying that you don't read bugfixes because there's so many of them, so what's going to happen if we move them to balance changes? There will be so many balance changes that you won't want to read them either.
The point is that any bug fix that affects the game balance should (also) be listed in the balance change list.

That's like 90% of items in that list of 5161651 fixed bugs. Such approach just doesn't make sense.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Aug 2019, 19:03

EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:You can't say something is not a bug just because it affects balance. By that logic, there have essentially never been any bugs in the game :hmm:
It seems absolutely clear to me that players aren't supposed to see on the UI what shipments are their opponents sending, it's an oversight of the x2 shipments introduced in TAD.

It might be a bug but who cares?
I've never read the 5161651 list of fixed bugs (and it actually means that the mod team did an insane job) and nobody does. And when you read the balance changes, you want to see the shogunate huge nerf (it's a huge one), and the deck change.

Sounds like you're arguing a bit against yourself. You're saying that you don't read bugfixes because there's so many of them, so what's going to happen if we move them to balance changes? There will be so many balance changes that you won't want to read them either.
The point is that any bug fix that affects the game balance should (also) be listed in the balance change list.

That's like 90% of items in that list of 5161651 fixed bugs. Such approach just doesn't make sense.

Nah, I want to put the relevant bug fixes to balance changes.
Thus, put the shogunate nerf and the deck thing to balance changes.
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Italy Garja
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24 Aug 2019, 19:07

It is most likely not a bug.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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24 Aug 2019, 19:12

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Sounds like you're arguing a bit against yourself. You're saying that you don't read bugfixes because there's so many of them, so what's going to happen if we move them to balance changes? There will be so many balance changes that you won't want to read them either.
The point is that any bug fix that affects the game balance should (also) be listed in the balance change list.

That's like 90% of items in that list of 5161651 fixed bugs. Such approach just doesn't make sense.

Nah, I want to put the relevant bug fixes to balance changes.
Thus, put the shogunate nerf and the deck thing to balance changes.

Is the cover mode fix of Aztec/China explorers irrelevant to balance, then? How about the fix of team Urumi card that could give your Urumis like 100% buff on stats in age3? How about age3 Mamelukes? Japanese end isolation bug? Turkeys unable to enhance shrines..? The list goes on.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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24 Aug 2019, 19:17

Riotcoke wrote:There's no way it passed QA testing, it's such a simple thing to see, by the same degree if you think it's a bug to see the 2x it's a bug to see the enemy's deck as a whole. It's simply Just a balance to japan's double shipments.

Gurkhas are labeled as Urumi Swordsmen on the hotkey interface and you're telling me there's no way this passed testing? How about alt-d or cover mode bugs that weren't fixed even with the release of a whole new expansion?
It's not an obvious bug to find at all, personally I never noticed it in all my time of playing the game. That kinda says enough about how ridiculous it is to consider it an intended balancing feature.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 Aug 2019, 19:17

EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Nah, I want to put the relevant bug fixes to balance changes.
Thus, put the shogunate nerf and the deck thing to balance changes.

Is the cover mode fix of Aztec/China explorers irrelevant to balance, then? How about the fix of team Urumi card that could give your Urumis like 100% buff on stats in age3? How about age3 Mamelukes? Japanese end isolation bug? Turkeys unable to enhance shrines..? The list goes on.

Removing cover mode is a balance change. Fixing it is a bug fix and it doesn't affect balance that much.
I don't really know the other bugs so I guess it doesn't matter and you can put them in bug fix.
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France bwinner
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24 Aug 2019, 21:10

I think bug fix that need a deep discution with balance team could be in both and that's the case for this Japan stuff
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24 Aug 2019, 21:30

I See the EP Beta FAQ for general information.
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Singapore Thrar
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25 Aug 2019, 02:21

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:There's no way it passed QA testing, it's such a simple thing to see, by the same degree if you think it's a bug to see the 2x it's a bug to see the enemy's deck as a whole. It's simply Just a balance to japan's double shipments.

Gurkhas are labeled as Urumi Swordsmen on the hotkey interface and you're telling me there's no way this passed testing? How about alt-d or cover mode bugs that weren't fixed even with the release of a whole new expansion?
It's not an obvious bug to find at all, personally I never noticed it in all my time of playing the game. That kinda says enough about how ridiculous it is to consider it an intended balancing feature.

For context, in my experience the QA process for a given build might have looked something like this:
  1. There may or may not be some level of automated unit testing. This tests individual functions and small modules, but won't cover a multiplayer interaction like the x2 on the cards visible to the other player.
  2. There are different granularities of functional tests, with written down test specifications and perhaps partially automated. Testers follow the script to ensure reproducible test results. I'd expect these tests to cover e.g. that the other player cannot see what shipments you've sent. Since they cover common game functionality, likely they would be executed once overall rather than once per civ.
  3. There is some amount of exploratory testing, i.e. testers looking at specific parts of the game somewhat freely, trying to set up situations they think could provoke errors.
  4. There is balance testing, where playtesters look at specific changes and how they affect gameplay. As with the other tests, this is a planned process where testers try to examine certain scenarios, not just play freely.
  5. If at one of these points a tester notices that the x2 goes away, they would enter it into some kind of tracker along with other findings. Later these get prioritized along with everything else left to do, and worked on according to priority. Given the very specific nature of this issue and the low impact it has on the game's success as a product, I'd say even if it was discovered, it's unlikely that a product manager would consider it important enough to address compared to whatever other improvements they could plan for instead.
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Canada Mitoe
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25 Aug 2019, 04:21

The question isn't about whether or not it is a bug, it's about how much it impacts the game. Yes, the majority of bug fixes affect balance, but the change for most of them is very small, almost unnoticeable.

However stuff on the level of the Japanese deck checking and the 1000 less exp on the Shogunate are so impactful to the point that they actually change the way you have to play the game, and therefore should be listed as a balance change, IMO.

- "Old Ways" shipment now decreases the cost of Founder big button tech by 50%, instead of greatly increasing its cost in error.

This bug fix, for example, definitely does affect the game, but it also doesn't change the way anyone will play. If it did, then the priority should be to list it as a balance change.


Onto a slightly different topic, I find these changes to be pretty strange:

- Comanche Trade Language now affects Wonder costs.

This isn't a big deal, and really I don't care much whether or not it stays in the game, but why was it determined to be a bug that this tech didn't affect wonder cost? If we're considering wonders a tech, why aren't we considering European and TWC age up politicians/chiefs as technologies?
- German Consulate passive effect changed to -15% banner-army cost; this fixes a bug where German Consulate would cause trained banner-armies to "refund" resources to the player, due to the armies having negative costs.

I understand that the negative costs thing was a bug, but overall I think this should be more of a balance change because it does make the German consulate better to the point that it may be used more frequently.
- Changdao cover mode attack standardized to deal half the damage of regular attack.

This one I'm kinda on the fence about. I don't think it's going to change the way anyone played, but I think it's probably impactful enough that it should be listed as a balance change. Really I wouldn't be that upset if it remained under bug fixes, though, because I'm pretty sure most people didn't even know this was a thing.
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Malta Aizamk
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25 Aug 2019, 05:03

subjectivity will always exist. best to just read the whole list, balance changes and bug fixes as there will always be some overlap.

btw @Mitoe Comanche Trade Language already affects European and TWC age up politicians/chiefs as technologies.

Also I was pretty sure changdao cover mode attack thing was fixed many many patches ago, which is weird.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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25 Aug 2019, 06:02

Mitoe wrote:If we're considering wonders a tech, why aren't we considering European and TWC age up politicians/chiefs as technologies?

We are; the tech has always affected Euro/TWC age-ups, which is why it was considered a bug that only TAD wonder age-ups are unaffected on RE.

I understand that the negative costs thing was a bug, but overall I think this should be more of a balance change because it does make the German consulate better to the point that it may be used more frequently.

On this one I agree it is technically both a bugfix and a balance change, since we have altered the effects to something different than originally intended, in order to fix the bug. Same thing with the Old Ways fix or disciple aura fix for example. I dislike the idea of duplicating a change note in both sections, but these types of changes could really fit in either. Right now they're in bugfixes just because the primary reason of changing those effects was fixing the bug, rather than affecting balance (which isn't a super strong argument).
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Italy gamevideo113
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25 Aug 2019, 06:59

Just read all the patch notes
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25 Aug 2019, 20:17

I like the patch notes, hand infantry buffs are called for, but I worry about the rajputs change, Indian units are already pretty strong
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26 Aug 2019, 01:43

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EP 7.0.0.0 Beta2 [2019-08-26]
changelog since EP 7.0.0.0 Beta1

Bug fixes
- Fixed "Old Dynasty Reforms" not increasing the coin costs of Standard & Mongolian banner-armies.
- Adjusted conflicting Mongolian & Black Flag banner-army hotkeys after their move to War Academy. The default hotkeys are now "d" for Mongolian banner-army and "f" for Black Flag banner-army.
- Mongolian & Black Flag banner-armies are now trainable at the Fort and Blockhouse received from Russian Consulate.
- The Diplomacy button can no longer overlay the Objectives button (Objectives has higher priority).
- Fixed a possible client crash when observers utilized the "visible unit path" feature.
- Fixed an issue where fonts on the integrated Aizamk's Spectator UI wouldn't render correctly unless the standalone version of the UI was previously installed on the computer at some point.

Launcher
- Fixed failure to unpack update on French/Portuguese OS.


ESOC Patch balance changes

General
- Medicine Man population cost reduced from 1 to 0
- Priest cost reduced from 200c to 150c; bounties adjusted accordingly
- Udasi Chakram "Heavy Infantry" unit-tag removed
- Young Garde "Heavy Infantry" unit-tag removed

Aztecs
- "6 Coyote Runners" shipment decreased to 5 Coyote Runners

British
- "Guard Longbowmen" and "Imperial Longbowmen" improvements set to available, by default; "Yeomen" shipment updated accordingly

Chinese
- "Black Flag" banner-army increased from 3 Changdao Swordsmen and 2 Meteor Hammers to 4 Changdao Swordsmen and 2 Meteor Hammers; cost increased from 285f, 350c to 380f, 350c; train-points decreased from 40 to 33
- Iron Flail hand attack increased from 19 to 20 (damage cap increased from 38 to 40); hitpoints increased from 292 to 320
- Meteor Hammer attack decreased from 29 to 25

Ottomans
- "Koprulu Viziers" improvement moved from Colonial to Discovery Age
- "Tanzimat" improvement moved from Industrial to Fortress Age
- Imam heal-rate increased from 10 to 20 hitpoints per second
- Spahi ranged resistance increased from 10% to 20%

Portuguese
- Organ Gun limber mode speed increased from 1.6 to 2.4; train-points decreased from 45 to 40

Spanish
- "Spanish Gold" shipment decreased from 300c to 250c per shipment


Credits

- @Kevsoft for unit path crash fix
United States of America charlemango
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26 Aug 2019, 01:59

Let's see how nerfing China's most iconic unit goes over with the crowd :hehe:
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Canada dansil92
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26 Aug 2019, 02:06

Meteor Hammer attack decreased from 29 to 25


OOF

Udasi Chakram "Heavy Infantry" unit-tag removed


This I like a lot. That shipment for india just got a lot more useable
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:hehe: :hehe: :hehe:
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Germany Lukas_L99
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26 Aug 2019, 02:11

I don’t like these banner army changes at all...
Why even change them..?
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France Kaiserklein
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26 Aug 2019, 02:31

Thanks a lot for fixing the bug on the french version of the ep launcher

Mitoe wrote:
- Comanche Trade Language now affects Wonder costs.

This isn't a big deal, and really I don't care much whether or not it stays in the game, but why was it determined to be a bug that this tech didn't affect wonder cost? If we're considering wonders a tech, why aren't we considering European and TWC age up politicians/chiefs as technologies?

Yeah right, I mean asian wonders are already "buildings", so you can get a discount with for example the port consulate or the cree tech, which makes sense. So I don't really understand this change, though ultimately it doesn't really matter.

Lukas_L99 wrote:I don’t like these banner army changes at all...
Why even change them..?

Yeah these chinese changes are gonna be a disaster. Just too impactful and too random.
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26 Aug 2019, 02:36

comanche tech doesnt just affect buildings tho, it affects all coin costs, so it should affect politicians, but actually, i think it does already? cause it's research items, that's probably why it didn't affect wonders, because you build them and don't research. I don't think this is a bug tbh. Because building discounts affect wonders but not age up politicians, while research discounts affect age up politicians but not buildings. I think that's fair.
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France Kaiserklein
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26 Aug 2019, 02:38

Comanche up affects techs only, not buildings (nor other coin costs). Techs include politicians. It just didn't include wonders until now, because wonders are buildings and not techs
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26 Aug 2019, 02:43

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Mitoe wrote:If we're considering wonders a tech, why aren't we considering European and TWC age up politicians/chiefs as technologies?

We are; the tech has always affected Euro/TWC age-ups, which is why it was considered a bug that only TAD wonder age-ups are unaffected on RE.

I understand that the negative costs thing was a bug, but overall I think this should be more of a balance change because it does make the German consulate better to the point that it may be used more frequently.

On this one I agree it is technically both a bugfix and a balance change, since we have altered the effects to something different than originally intended, in order to fix the bug. Same thing with the Old Ways fix or disciple aura fix for example. I dislike the idea of duplicating a change note in both sections, but these types of changes could really fit in either. Right now they're in bugfixes just because the primary reason of changing those effects was fixing the bug, rather than affecting balance (which isn't a super strong argument).


it's not a bug. politicians are techs, wonders are buildings. politicians aren't affected by building discounts, so why would wonders be affected by tech discounts? this seems really unfair.

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