EP 7.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

[ListlessSalmon]

Ty to kevsoft and eaglemut for their work on this!

The start of walking back the misguided aztec shipment changes is promising. Even more crazy (and needless) China changes is not.

[dansil92]

China top colonial civ now, change my mind

[gamevideo113]

China top colonial civ now, change my mind

Having steppes+keshiks from the castle doesn't change a lot imo. Perhaps you could try keshik+steppe+ckn as a colonial composition but imo these are all fragile units and they die quite easily, big fights will very likely snowball in favor of your enemy. Mongolian scourge is probably more viable now, steppe raids might become quite scary in prolonged colonial wars. We'll have to see, can't say for now.

In general though it feels like these sudden radical changes aren't appealing to the community (since i've rarely seen people test them), so EP might need a more gradual approach if substantial changes are to be made.

I think we should focus on the balance aspects of all the civs mainly and try to improve the internal civ balance of a couple civs maximum with every release. From what i can tell the EP 7 beta was a bit overwhelming in that regard, considering that aztecs and chinese were changed a lot, and also other civs like ports, spain, germany and sioux recieved substantial changes, on top of the general changes like grenadier/halb.

[pecelot]

Spanish Gold should be 400 coin really

[gamevideo113]

Spanish Gold should be 400 coin really

And in the fortress age! I'm not a fan of colonial spanish gold.

[pecelot]

no, in the colonial age, it's the Spain pain train in the end

[gamevideo113]

no, in the colonial age, it's the Spain pain train in the end

That's what unction is for!

[scarm]

If anyone wants to mess around a bit on the Beta, i am online right now on Malebranche.

[scarm]

Should Chinas New Bannerarmies maybe be included in the Summer Palace for Consistencies Sake should they stay in the War Academy? Also i don't really like the new Waracademyinterface, its getting pretty stuffed but thats just preference.

[EAGLEMUT]

It is planned to include them there, but so far wasn't possible due to technical reasons.

[RefluxSemantic]

I just can't understand why china has to be totally standardized. Isn't the iffyness of banner armies not always giving you what you want one of the defining characteristiscs of china? I also have no idea why you'd want to mess with the meteor and flail stats? It seemed pretty much fine and I always thought meteor hammers were an exceptionally cool unit.

[almalek]

this is just good..

[Garja]

Just don't bother with putting the armies in the summer palace. We simply can't change banner armies.

[gamevideo113]

At the very least put them back in the castle, so that if china wants a better army comp they have to go for 2 different production facilities like every other civ.
I'm not against changing the castle banner armies, but changing them like this is not very justifiable from both a design and balance point of view. Also, the meteor hammer nerf is undeserved. The iron flail buff might be alright, since we almost never see imperial army from china, but keep in mind that they already tank a lot with the double faced armor card. Maybe leave the meteor attack untouched and nerf the armor card to just 10%hp 35% armor.

Also, i'm not a fan of spanish gold being pushed at all costs. Spanish colonial is already stuffed with cards in every deck, and i think spain shouldn't even be too bad in colonial anyway. Just leave the card in the fortress age and find other ways to buff the civ. This change is too intrusive imo. Everybody is suggesting to increase the civ xp bonus and i think it is a good idea because you are just adjusting a simple value without trying to create new playstyles that the original civ didn't even think of using in the first place.
Boosting spain's xp bonus allows to consistently send two discovery age cards and i think it can be good for a potential xbow-pike rush which should be a viable strategy with spain by design. Also, since unction got buffed even more, i think long term play with spain in colonial could/should become a potentially decent strategy.

[helln00]

I remember in the Napolean era mod, Chinese army shipments would unlock the army at the barracks/war academy. This might be the way to go for the new chinese armies, make it more of a build order choice and not a thing from the start.

There is already a kelisk and steepe rider army, the Beiyang army card. But its a fotress card that cost food and is pretty weak by then. So then move it to colonial, make it unlock the army at the barracks and possibly make it buff them instead of the current Dynasty reform arrangements. This way you don't have to put it into summer palace.

[helln00]

I remember in the Napolean era mod, Chinese army shipments would unlock the army at the barracks/war academy. This might be the way to go for the new chinese armies, make it more of a build order choice and not a thing from the start.

There is already a kelisk and steepe rider army, the Beiyang army card. But its a fotress card that cost food and is pretty weak by then. So then move it to colonial, make it unlock the army at the barracks and possibly make it buff them instead of the current Dynasty reform arrangements. This way you don't have to put it into summer palace.

[zoom]

I doubt this needs to be changed in the beta, but when testing stuff yesterday I found that the 'new' Chinese armies can't be made in the fort from the Russian consulate

Thank you for pointing out this oversight!

[zoom]

those china buffs are spicy. Though I do want to ask if the crossbow inaccuracy change will affect other arrow units as well (cav archers, lbs, archers and cnk). perfectly accurate cnk sounds op

No. The change is to the Crossbowman, specifically.

[zoom]

What about slowing German xp progression by a bit more? Currently it seems more like that they are getting buffed, the extra 10hp bring a lot to the table, and most uhlans will still be free. A slower shipment progression would make the TP start less strong and make the semi-FF and FF much more punishable. Germany would become a kind of more risk/more reward version of France, instead of a just strictly better one. (Yea France has muskets, but thats only for colonial and France cant stay colonial vs pretty much every civ anyways).

It's an option, but I fear it would disproportionately nerf the civilization on 0TP maps. I think replacing "The Exiled Prince" makes the most sense, as it would keep the strength of the civilization's unique features in check, and allow for minimizing the number of changes. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be justifiable, given how unpopular the suggestion seems, among players.

[zoom]

As I have mentioned, many times, this year, EP7 will begin to also focus on improvements to the game, including issues of viability. Having core game features marginalized - let alone so many of them - is simply unacceptable. I have no illusions of making everything equally viable; only aspirations of making some things at least situationally viable, bit by bit.

@zoom thank you for this. You can't know how much I like this approach. Improving the stats of some low tiers units (mostly melee units) is going to be (I hope) refreshing for unit composition and so, for strategic options. Can't wait to see that happening!

I'm glad you appreciate these limited, top priority viability changes. I'm confident that they can be implemented without significant disruption to inter-civilization balance, especially using a measured approach, and with player feedback.

[zoom]

Great changes!

One tweak I would like to see is that 2 castles seems too strong when compared to a 2 outpost shipment for euro civs in terms of res value, especially since the former doubles as 2 artillery foundries, so could 2 outpost wagons for Europeans/TWC civs grant them +100w "for walls" as well?

That change was only made as the Castle was being made cheaper, and the shipments are too extreme(ly unviable). Being a non-essential change, I am considering reverting it, though. Buffing other shipments, while something to consider, in the future, isn't a priority, at this time.

[zoom]

I think bug fix that need a deep discution with balance team could be in both and that's the case for this Japan stuff

It would simply be technically wrong, though. What I would consider, is bolding bug fixes that are unusually impactful to balance, and noting them (like I have, in the "Beta Japanese Discussion" thread for instance).

[Riotcoke]

I doubt this needs to be changed in the beta, but when testing stuff yesterday I found that the 'new' Chinese armies can't be made in the fort from the Russian consulate

Thank you for pointing out this oversight!

Just to tag something onto this, it's the same for the summer palace.

[zoom]

@zoom
Spahi rr buff to 20% is decent but for only two shipment tops (5 age3 and 6 age4) and maybe age4 age up.
Why not make them trainable in stable with ( 350 res, 4 pop - Kaiser) adjusted cost and remove auto upgrade and healing.
Or the lesser solution is to add an infinite shipment in age IV.

I like the idea of an INFINITE shipment. The priority should be making the unit less shit, though.

[zoom]

W/regards to 20 range abus:

I don't really see them being used in tournaments that often at all. If they were truly OP, wouldn't Otto try harder to get them?

I feel like in almost all games, Otto in Age3 either don't make abus but only Jans, or they make abus but don't upgrade them to vet. In the few games that Otto get vet abus, they are strong on paper but not in context: at this point, the opponent already has 3x the eco and the military numbers usually as well.

I find it hard to imagine Otto having a sizable number of vet abus, enough anticav without either a) having already won the game (similar eco, full map control all TPs) or b) the opponent easily winning anyway due to 3x the eco/army.

It doesn't really make sense to compare Otto units to other civs', when Otto eco especially in midgame is so pathetic.

I'm inclined to agree. I haven't seen anything to convince me that it's a balance issue, and several players insist that not having it would be. According to players, Ottomans is hardly above average, to begin with. I'd rather leave it, until anyone proves it a problem.