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Depends on the plan. Probably in most of cases you can replace it with an industrial unit shipment, but for example vs passive water play I think old han just plays better.

Nope, skirm/pike is more cost effective with a 26 rattan shipment and 2 crows.

on re you would definitely want old han vs port or jap water tbh. easier to macro with mortars also. but ye on ep its just useless card.

Would you want 16 range CKN vs 20 range goons though?

range doesnt matter u just spam shit and go afk

Lukas_L99 wrote:Would you want 16 range CKN vs 20 range goons though?

they're still prety good imo considering they have imperial stats and +1x after repelling volley

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Nope, skirm/pike is more cost effective with a 26 rattan shipment and 2 crows.

The concept of cost effectiveness has little to do with unit shipments. Either old han is more cost effective or territorial army is.
In a macro game where hp, attack, siege, train time and mass in general is quite valuable, while range and rr are not as much, old han tend to be more cost effective, and probably straight up more effective too. Adding the intangible of not having to move from mine to mine with vills old is probably even more cost effective.

Keep in mind that you need more upgrades (vet upgrades) and you also need to waste a shipment for old han.
Also it's awkward to add cav with old han.

but old han used to be so good that you didnt need cav, so it's irrelevant in any case, it's not that hard, i used to do it all the time. just keep tower on coin.

But old han for that reason was a very nasty shipment on RE. Design wise it seemed very bad that unkillable pikes running everywhere on the map.

Does China really need a nerf? Why not just leave them as they are?

Sure, their untouched FF mass is crazy, but it's the same with letting other civs get to their ideal position, it sucks for the opponent. If brits reach full manor pop with 2 raxes and a stable untouched, they're in an amazing position. If ports manage to full sea boom
.. Etc.

The tradeoffs are a fairly weak eco, a very weak age2 and a fairly inflexible build. Semi FF options exist, but are usually only viable to defend a rush/timing.

Astaroth wrote:Does China really need a nerf? Why not just leave them as they are?

Sure, their untouched FF mass is crazy, but it's the same with letting other civs get to their ideal position, it sucks for the opponent. If brits reach full manor pop with 2 raxes and a stable untouched, they're in an amazing position. If ports manage to full sea boom
.. Etc.

The tradeoffs are a fairly weak eco, a very weak age2 and a fairly inflexible build. Semi FF options exist, but are usually only viable to defend a rush/timing.

This just isn't true.

Not saying china needs nerf, just saying.

Yeah chinese eco isn’t that weak. Keep in mind that in their typical FF they age with a 400f 4v wonder to colonial and 8v wonder to fortress. Their units are also mostly cheap, so their eco is relatively good.
Chinese colonial is more awkward than actually weak. Staying age2 with china isn’t desirable but you’re not just going to lose if you aren’t age3 by the 9 minute mark.
I’d say china is rather monodimensional overall, but not unflexible.
And i agree, china seems in a decent spot right now. If their crates float around 200f 200w though i think they deserve an extra food crate (like other TAD civs), otherwise they’ll be too slow. At least it can be tested, even though some china players heavily despise the change.

Also, i think removing coin starts altogether takes away some flavour from the game. If anything, I’d rather just remove the 100c start and leave the 100f 100c start, which is fine for TAD civs really.

Well, I do think Chinese eco is quite weak.

Taking the summer palace as a full 4v is a bit disingenuous, seeing that it will produce quite weak age2 pike ckn for a while. Sure, they are useful (vs a rush etc), but not worth their vill second count in Age3 without upgrades. Even once you change the wonder, 4v is better than just random units because they are much more flexible (can change them to wood for houses or a boom, can gather res for mercs or age4 with them etc, can use the gathered res on other units that you need more...) .

The tower is nice, but also a very greedy option that you can usually only use VS greedy civs, ie civs that have a better eco than you, tower or not.

I am not saying China's economy is horrible, just that it is weaker than most other civs' (Euro civs get earlier market with steel traps, 3SW, 4cdb/training cdbs, banks, manors, Spanish gold etc; even Sioux get teepee, 3 and 5 vills etc).

Ofc China makes up for that with their massive shipments and Age3 power spike, but their eco is still fairly weak. I would guess that their total res gathered (even if you count the summer palace as 4v in VS and add that) will be lower than that of most other civs.

China eco is very decent

You're right the summer palace is actually better than 4 vills, it's 4.37. it also doesn't take resources and never gets idled.

China also gets to produce vills during aging. That's more than 3 vills when going to colonial compared to nilla colonial age ups (90 seconds to go to colonial vs 25 seconds to produce a villager). Add to that the summer palace and porcelain tower and you're actually getting ~16 vills eco boost. That's actually a pretty good eco bonus!

Astaroth wrote: I am not saying China's economy is horrible, just that it is weaker than most other civs' (Euro civs get earlier market with steel traps, 3SW, 4cdb/training cdbs, banks, manors, Spanish gold etc; even Sioux get teepee, 3 and 5 vills etc).

I am pretty sure that spains eco for example is actually way worse than chinas.

spanish gold look pretty usless just because spain need the momentum age 3. But maybe iam wrong

Well, as I said, just check the res gathered, even if you add 3 or 4 vills worth of res gathering from the summer palace. Most other civs have a better eco.

Again, not saying their eco is terrible, just that most other civs have a better eco, meaning that China needs sth else to compensate - - which they do, I feel they are quite balanced atm.

(as far as training vills during aging goes: if you compare it to India or Japan: India gets free vills every shipment, 4 Otto vills, a wood trickle, Japan has 4x2 and 7x2 vills plus shrines)

Tbh China to me just seems a bit like a civ that many people don't like for whatever reason, similar to Otto. Due to their reliance on shipments, Ppl find it frustrating to play against them, even though they are arguably no stronger nor "less skillful" then civs like France, dutch or iro. Compared to these civs, China is probably even "harder" to play due to a less straightforward semi FF vs age2 timings and more unit types in Age3 (micro).

(note that I don't even really play China, but France)

Riotcoke wrote:You're right the summer palace is actually better than 4 vills, it's 4.37. it also doesn't take resources and never gets idled.

That's overvaluing it. The downside, and it's a pretty big one especially in colonial age, is that you don't want to be spending those villager seconds on military. Getting 4v upon age up from summer palace would be much better than its current effect. Possibly even 3v would be better.

China doesn't have objectively the best eco, but it's definitely more than enough considering how cost effective chinese units are. They cannot get very greedy during conventional play unlike other civs, but that only means that they have to play in a specific way and they are totally fine if they do so.
Also, as Goodspeed pointed out in another thread, giving china random crates isn't necessarily an all around nerf. It can even be a buff with a 100f 100w start.

Yeah the problem with summer palace is that you only benefit from it in spikes every X seconds (whenever the army spawns), whereas having vills would net you a constant resource income that you can spend in any moment you want and however you want. Still, it's undeniable that the summer palace is extra eco for china.

Also you don't really want a bow/pike batch when you ff. You'd rather save these resources to train units in age 3.

Astaroth wrote:"harder" (micro)

heh good one

Considering how China works early (no military building and resources invested in age up and upgrades) having free units is actually ideal.