EP 7.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

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France chronique
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by chronique »

Garja wrote: No civ is broken on TP and bad on non TP and same for water/no water.
Some mu are, play spain vs brit on non tp map is pretty unplayable. On water, we need to ask kynesis becouse, for some reason, anyother top player want play like him (and the win rate he have on water map vs his level on land is realy big).
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Garja »

Spain is worse on TP map too. Really no difference.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Hazza54321 »

well its much worse on non tp thats the whole point of this discussion.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by chronique »

Garja wrote:Spain is worse on TP map too. Really no difference.
As spain player i can see a big difference between tp or not vs :
- brit (bad mu on tp, instante loose on non tp)
- russian (good mu on tp, not good on non tp)
- deutch (good mu on tp, unplayable on non tp)

Same, as iro player i can said the same, realy strong on tp, clearly not on non tp (same, vs deutch is good with tp, is pretty unwinable on non tp)

So when the map have this kind of impact, there are a probleme.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by EAGLEMUT »

stanleywinston wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
stanleywinston wrote:Are Agra Fort hotkeys fixed in this patch? I can't seem to get them working :D
If you mean fixed as in disabled by anti-cheat or something, no, they are allowed.
If you mean fixed as in added to the game interface or something, also no.
Is it possible to implement it in the patch?
If you mean implementing an anti-cheat rule, yes, but the general consensus has been that this is not a cheat and is allowed even in tournaments.
If you mean implementing them into the hotkey interface, that is unfortunately problematic because of maintaining profile compatibility with RE. I think it just won't happen in any form at this point.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:Never thought a decimal point be so impactful on a balance decision lmao
It isn't; the current cost buff was made to buff the civilization. If it hadn't been considered desirable to do so, at the time, it would never have been done. Eliminating the decimal cost was a bonus. Given that the coming cost nerf is insignificant to balance (being a 1% cost increase, from the original cost), I think it's well worth making, since it's undesirable to find yourself in a situation where the in-game UI explicitly indicates that you can afford something, while you actually can't.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Kaiserklein »

Or you can also round up instead of rounding down the cost. Same goes for market trading, sometimes you can't buy wood for 126g even if you seem to have 126g. Would be better to round it up to 127g.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Hazza54321 »

Or just keep it the same as RE and strike off one thing thats adding to the list of changes everyone cant be arsed to read for the 60th time
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

wardyb1 wrote:
zoom wrote:
Aykin Haraka wrote:i'm happy i don't play anymore
I'm sad there isn't more constructive feedback.
To be fair, all of the posts that discussed changes were locked to certain people so that will inherently cut down feedback. People won't feel like giving feedback post changes as they have already been cut out of the discussion.
You are undeniably right in saying that it will unavoidably cut down feedback. However, I do read this thread, and every other public thread in the EP forum, regularly. I am thankful to everyone who has given constructive feedback, anywhere—I do read and consider it, wherever it may be, and it benefits the patch.

Actual top-player participation has been poor, ever since the AgeSanctuary days. The closed-beta forum has been part of an attempt to increase top-player participation, by creating ideal conditions and maximum incentive for the fifty or so players invited to participate, during the beta. At least with regards to the number of players participating, results have been underwhelming. I do think we'll see increased participation, post-release, and expect future beta forums to be fully public.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

WickedCossack wrote:Just saw this bug change: Indian Monks now have the previously missing AbstractElephant tag.

Any balance consequences of this or just a tag fix?
IIRC the Brahmin Monk(s) will now be affected by the Elephant Combat shipment.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:Or just keep it the same as RE and strike off one thing thats adding to the list of changes everyone cant be arsed to read for the 60th time
What I suggested wouldn't add to the list of balance changes though, it's just quality of life stuff
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

yurashic wrote:Many great changes!

I don't get why every single unit the Aztecs have is buffed though. It's not like they have weak units. Why are the skull knights buffed? They are only a part of the FI strategy and if the Aztecs reach IV successfully without taking too much damage they have one of the best compositions with the skull knights, mace and the warchief anyway.

Adding 1 extra splash is essentially doubling the damage a unit does, so the macehualtin change is a bit strange considering the unit is already very powerful.

China is going to be a completely different civ now with the consulate changes, the treasure changes, the crate changes and the banner army changes. Needs testing. :)
I know I've already discussed this with you, privately, but I think it's worthwhile to (partly) repeat myself here:

First, far from every unit is being buffed, those that are being buffed are currently relatively unviable, and the strongest unit is being nerfed.
Second, the primary reason that Aztecs is being buffed, is that the civilization is considered weak, by players.
Third, the Skull Knight is being buffed, since, as you say, it is only viable as part of a specific strategy, that is being nerfed (since Heal Dance is no longer bugged to affect the unconscious War Chief). Hopefully, we'll see players opting for the "Garland War Dance", "The Warrior" council (age-up) and Skull Knight shipments more frequently, now.
Fourth, +1 Macehualtin splash radius (with the Temple shipment) is being replaced with +1 Macehualtin range and line of sight (I only wanted to test it, prior to release, which I have).

As for Chinese, I think it's an overstatement to say that it will be a completely different civilization. I would agree that it's somewhat different. Mainly, you will have more options available and be weaker in cases (crate starts) where previously you were disproportionately strong – which is hard to go wrong with, as far as balance is concerned. Like the Aztecs, It is certainly one of the civilizations with the most significant changes, though.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

dansil92 wrote:Id say the mace card is actually worth 1000 coin now, but i doubt it will be too powerful. Vs units that bunch up too much like ruyters it will be noticeable but i doubt it has a huge impact in normal circumstances. Also it means you have to get to fortress age and spend 1000 coin to get it, which is unlikely to happen with much frequency
After testing it, I am confident that it would be too powerful, in the situations you do obtain it. I think it would be overpowered, even if it the original +25% HP effect were removed.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

chronique wrote:Spanish xp bonus is not suppose to be improved?
It's been in consideration for the longest time. Ultimately, I am concerned that it would make Spanish overpowered, combined with the other changes (faster Fortress Age-time, specifically, which is quite impactful to the civilization's conventional strategy).

Above all, EP continues to be an experiment in how much you can buff Spanish before it becomes overpowered.
:ship:
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

helln00 wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Well, check this thread.
I'm probably just blind but i cant seem to find a mention of nerfed brit consulate anywhere on the thread except for the zoom comment , can you help me by just pointing it out so my brain registers it once?
Current effective changes (from EP6) are always found in the OP. It has always been the case, IIRC. I should have made sure to communicate this, though.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:@aqwer totally the opposite. Xp trickle would be a buff for otto because they rely on shipments more than most other civs, and can even afford 200w for a nat post with starting crates. Plus otto is one of the fastest civs so they can nat rush just fine. I actually think nat rush would become very hard to beat for a lot of civs on no tp vs otto now, probably too hard.
It's certainly a buff to the civilization, but probably not to the extent that it is for Germans, for instance; partly since Ottomans already has the much improved Mosque (with the same trickle and cheap Settler improvements), and partly since Ottomans is more reliant on Stagecouch than any other civilization.

"It is a relatively small effect; the same as a Mosque (~60% of a Trade Route Travois) but at double the cost. It should serve to help the viability of tp-reliant civilizations, on 0TP maps, and improve minor native viability.

Frankly, if it does either, I'll be happy.

Open question: Do you think we should include a nerf to the Huaminca?
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-10-28]

Post by zoom »

Challenger_Marco wrote:We need to get nilla stats into tad now 25% faster XP income please..
I'm quite worried that Spanish would become stronger than any civilization is on EP6 (let alone EP7) if that buff were added.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by aqwer »

Don't nerf huaminca
#trainableSpahi
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by chronique »

The xp trickle on some map and for some civ looks very very strong. Iro is my top civ, i play a lot with native and it's currently very good (huminca rush), can't imagine with the xp trickle.

The main probleme with the xp trickle is, thats not really change what native are good and what are unplayable.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:It's certainly a buff to the civilization, but probably not to the extent that it is for Germans, for instance; partly since Ottomans already has the much improved Mosque (with the same trickle and cheap Settler improvements), and partly since Ottomans is more reliant on Stagecouch than any other civilization.
I guess that's arguable. The extra XP itself would be more "valuable" for germany, as in, worth more resources, since you get better shipments and you don't have the mosque (which somewhat negates a bit the native posts trickle). But on the other hand, otto has less eco than germany, so they just rely more on their shipments for their tempo. It's harder to mass, or to gather for an age up, without shipments, than it is for germany.
Either way, it's also about otto being able to nat rush faster (and more easily) than most civs. For example, going inca is already very viable for otto on pampas (as viable as it gets for otto on no tp), so with some free xp on top, it would be really great for otto.
zoom wrote:"It is a relatively small effect; the same as a Mosque (~60% of a Trade Route Travois) but at double the cost. It should serve to help the viability of tp-reliant civilizations, on 0TP maps, and improve minor native viability.

Frankly, if it does either, I'll be happy.
Well, there's still the same problem. Some nats are real crappy and I doubt you'll build a native post for half the value of an actual trading post. So as long as these nats are shit, people won't go for them I think, in a majority of situations. Meanwhile, the better nats, like incas or nootkas, are most likely gonna become OP for otto, and maybe for some other civs too.
I don't doubt that in some situations, it will improve these viabilities. I just think it won't be consistent at all, aka kinda broken.
zoom wrote:Open question: Do you think we should include a nerf to the Huaminca?
The one from the treasure should definitely be nerfed in some way, but we've agreed on that already.
Huamincas trained from the native post are fine. They're pretty good units for their cost, but I don't think they deserve a nerf.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by dansil92 »

I think huamincas are fine trained, they give a pretty decent rush option to sioux, otto, and are just generally a good unit, it would be sad to see it nerfed

Re: macehualtin- if the change is being reverted thats ok too, it would be interesting to give aztec a major fortress incentive but perhaps that was too much
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by Superfly47 »

People mostly use the fast age up politican to fortress, what if its age up time is slower so people wouldn't automatically use it?
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by WickedCossack »

ETA on when this is comming out? I assume soon since tournament has been announced.
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by n0el »

I think that the GOD TEAM is working this weekend to prepare it to launch.
mad cuz bad
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Re: EP 7.0.x Beta [2019-11-20]

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

The God team :lol:

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