The Janissary Question

[aqwer]

Just like with other similar decisions the TAD developers took while completely ignoring the vanilla aoe3, I want to raise few points.
In the original game, Janissary is a unique unit of ottomans that have bad multipliers against cavalry in melee (x2 vs x3 of musketeers) but they do have higher base attack to compensate. That worked fot vanilla but TAD totally ignored it by giving the same hand attack to sepoy but better multipliers.
Now Janissary is not that unique in that respect, they used to high hp but get nerfed too.
First I want to point out why Janissary should have a higer base attack, it is because they attack with scimitar instead of bayonet. Sepoy are similar to but why they should have (x3 vs cav) while Janissary can't.
To address this anomaly, either both have same multipliers or Janissary hand attack should be increased to 20.

[Kawapasaka]

Let's give Abus 26 range while we're at it, frankly I think it's ridiculous that an artillery unit trained from an artillery foundry has less range than bow units and even skirmishers.

[Jerimuno]

By your logic sepoys should be nerfed, since on RE jans were ok.

Either way, nothing will or should change in that direction, jans and sepoy melee are fine as is.

[duckzilla]

So what precisely is your reasoning behind the suggested change?

If it is purely on addressing an anomaly: bad argument, no change needed.
If it is the use of a scimitar: bad argument, no change needed.
If it is the situationally better performance of sepoys: bad argument, no change needed.
If it is "other units have better multipliers, plz buff": bad argument, no change needed.

Ottomans are not bad against cavalry. Buffing jans would just improve their already strong early colonial and further imbalance the civ.

[zoom]

I believe the answer to your question is the Abus Gun.

[aqwer]

I apologize for my bad English, I think I didn't convey my message properly.

[Kaiserklein]

Right, let's give jans 20 attack in melee, and make spahis trainable in stables... Fucking ridiculous

[Riotcoke]

Make jans do the same damage as dops, as they both have a sword.

[harcha]

why not make jans shadow tech? they are a unique unit after all!!!

[aqwer]

Right, let's give jans 20 attack in melee, and make spahis trainable in stables... Fucking ridiculous

But only x2 against cav, thats how it should be.

[Hazza54321]

20 att in melee lmao

[zoom]

I believe the answer to your question is the Abus Gun.

I should have been clearer. My point is that the Abus Gun being relatively powerful against heavy cavalry is probably the reason why the Janissary is relatively weak anti-cavalry.

[Garja]

20 att in melee lmao

That's more than changdao, clearly not acceptable

[bwinner]

jans are not especially bad against cav, the ratio (range attack)/(mele attack vs cav) is the same for musks and jans. The specificity is that jans are better than musk at attacking other units on mele.

[chronique]

And jan are better in siege damage if i am not wrong, and everybody know how tower did a lot of domage on cav, so jan better vs tower mean less tower mean otto cav better than other civ mean no need spahi buff !!!

[dansil92]

"Having a multiplier against" and "is good against" are two entirely different things. Jans don't need a huge multiplier against cav because they have seemingly infinite hp, melee resist and body block extremely well, while doing fairly similar net damage against cav as any other musk unit.

Sepoy were nerfed from the original tad release anyways (where they had a ranged multi vs cav, what a joke) and have always been an excellent anti cavalry unit.

A similar question can be raised about tomahawks, which are the second highest anticav damage of the musk units, and exceed sepoy easily when carded (im actually not sure what triple carded aura-buffed colonial tomas reach in stats for hp, but i imagine it makes sepoy look tame).

[chronique]

Sepoy were nerfed from the original tad release anyways (where they had a ranged multi vs cav, what a joke) and have always been an excellent anti cavalry unit.

Wtf cepay had range multi vs cav on RE ???

[aqwer]

I believe the answer to your question is the Abus Gun.

I should have been clearer. My point is that the Abus Gun being relatively powerful against heavy cavalry is probably the reason why the Janissary is relatively weak anti-cavalry.

That happens with 20+ abus which you don't usually see in most games especially early on.
But the point I an trying to make is that sepoy is a jan extract : similar melee weapon, similar melee animation. So they should have similar multiplier or similar net damage to cav, more so bcz jan is the only anticav otto has till mid fortress.
Is it just coincidence that sepoy has battle field construction just like jans (and tomas), all these have higher base damage than other musk units but why Jans are beings punished by x2 vs cav.

[dansil92]

Sepoy were nerfed from the original tad release anyways (where they had a ranged multi vs cav, what a joke) and have always been an excellent anti cavalry unit.

Wtf cepay had range multi vs cav on RE ???

Before the Robot Entertainment balance patch, yeah they had a ranged multi too. Stupid tad garbage on the original release like monk and disciples spawning disciples at kill at like 30% chance too...

@aqwer abus do more damage at range to heavy cav (especially high rr cav) than musks do, what more do you want

[chronique]

@dansil92 Ah yea in 2009 maybe :p. I remember when iro skirm had 25 att and when your fist travois could build the rax :p, and when ashi had, dont remember, but something like 35 att age 3.

[Kaiserklein]

Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.

[Hazza54321]

otto have abus to make up for jans, if jans were like sepoys ottos army would be the most unkillable army ever

[Amsel_]

I haven't seen jans have any problem dealing with cav. I don't think it would be that big of a deal to make jans do stronger melee damage against cav, but I don't really see the point in doing that either. If we're going to buff Otto, I would much rather see improved economic potential.

[chronique]

Why cepoy are broken? They have the same strenght stat (dont know how said that, like FP and skirm) than jan? Juste becouse more att?

[Kaiserklein]

Well yeah they have higher attack, and attack is the more important stat for musks. But they also have pretty good HP (especially on RE). They're insane vs cav in melee, and really good in melee overall.
Also the shooting animation is faster for sepoys than for other musks (they shoot almost instantly, almost like abus guns). In fact their melee animation is also better than the one of euro musks.

You can compare the stats of a sepoy and an ashi for example. For pretty much the same cost, the sepoy has +1 ranged attack, +5 melee attack and +10 hp (+20 on RE). Obviously ashis have +0.5 speed, but in pure combat sepoys are clearly way superior