The Janissary Question

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France chronique
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by chronique »

Kaiserklein wrote: Also the shooting animation is faster for sepoys than for other musks (they shoot almost instantly, almost like abus guns). In fact their melee animation is also better than the one of euro musks.
Wtf???I have never heard about it. Where we can find the "inside" stat?
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Kaiserklein »

Should be in the animations file, but I don't know if there's a "stat" you could read easily. I don't know where that file is either, but I'm sure @EAGLEMUT does
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Re: The Janissary Question

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

Kaiserklein wrote:Should be in the animations file, but I don't know if there's a "stat" you could read easily. I don't know where that file is either, but I'm sure @EAGLEMUT does
Yeah, it's actually readable, once you extract the animation file itself from whatever art.bar archive it's in.
The location of animation file (within the bar archive) for each unit can be seen referenced in the protounit file:

Code: Select all

<Unit id="946" name="ypSepoy">
<DBID>1400</DBID>
<DisplayNameID>60807</DisplayNameID>
<EditorNameID>60808</EditorNameID>
<PopulationCount>1</PopulationCount>
[...]
<AnimFile>units\asians\natives\sepoy\sepoy.xml</AnimFile>
(yes, it's really in the natives folder...)

Then, in the animation file itself, we can find this:

Code: Select all

<anim>
Volley_standing_attack
<assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
<file>animation_library\range\volley\volley_standing_fire</file>
<tag type="Attack">0.37</tag>
<tag type="SpecificSoundSet" checkvisible="1" set="RifleShot">0.37</tag>
<tag type="Particles" particlename="musketshot">0.37</tag>
</assetreference>
<component>ModelComp</component>
</anim>
My understanding is that this defines the Attack to happen at 0.37s. The Sepoy animation file seems derived from the Janissary, which have same numbers in both ranged and melee attack animations. In comparison, Musketeer has a 0.48 value here, Abus Gun has 0.02.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.
Disappointed. You don't want to fix Jans bcz it shouldn't be as good as sepoy bcz sepoy is broken? Even though Jans are not remotely good as sepoys, less ranged attack, less damage to cav, bad animation, same tc shots (EP).
Okay I will take that then why not fix sepoy, reduce melee base damage or the multiplier. And they also happens to have a card in age II that increases all hand attack.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by harcha »

aqwer wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.
Disappointed. You don't want to fix Jans bcz it shouldn't be as good as sepoy bcz sepoy is broken? Even though Jans are not remotely good as sepoys, less ranged attack, less damage to cav, bad animation, same tc shots (EP).
Okay I will take that then why not fix sepoy, reduce melee base damage or the multiplier. And they also happens to have a card in age II that increases all hand attack.
aqwer don't you see that there is nothing to fix here? janissaries don't need any fixing. same with cavalry archers. same with hussars. same with spahi. if you really want to change these units, just make your own damn patch
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by aqwer »

harcha wrote:
aqwer wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.
Disappointed. You don't want to fix Jans bcz it shouldn't be as good as sepoy bcz sepoy is broken? Even though Jans are not remotely good as sepoys, less ranged attack, less damage to cav, bad animation, same tc shots (EP).
Okay I will take that then why not fix sepoy, reduce melee base damage or the multiplier. And they also happens to have a card in age II that increases all hand attack.
aqwer don't you see that there is nothing to fix here? janissaries don't need any fixing. same with cavalry archers. same with hussars. same with spahi. if you really want to change these units, just make your own damn patch
If we stop thinking about improving stuff then this is the end of the world we knew. I am just trying to point out some things which I think are not right. And I have received mixed feedback so its okay. But ofc you are entitled to have your own opinion.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by deleted_user »

We do well to consider our adversaries as "mistaken" over "evil"
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by harcha »

aqwer wrote:If we stop thinking about improving stuff then this is the end of the world we knew. I am just trying to point out some things which I think are not right. And I have received mixed feedback so its okay. But ofc you are entitled to have your own opinion.
Improving is good. But the goal is to improve the balance *only where necessary* and not to improve the ottoman in general. Ottomans don't really need improvement in military.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: The Janissary Question

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Post by Kaiserklein »

aqwer wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.
Disappointed. You don't want to fix Jans bcz it shouldn't be as good as sepoy bcz sepoy is broken? Even though Jans are not remotely good as sepoys, less ranged attack, less damage to cav, bad animation, same tc shots (EP).
Okay I will take that then why not fix sepoy, reduce melee base damage or the multiplier. And they also happens to have a card in age II that increases all hand attack.
So every unit from every civ should be equal..? Jans should be buffed because they aren't as good as the best musk unit in the game? Also I love your comparison lmao, you don't mention jans having more HP and being cheaper than sepoys on EP, and no, jans need 1 more tc shot to die... And eaglemut just explained that jans and sepoys have the same animation lol.
What about abus then? They're totally OP, so should we nerf them to the ground to bring them in line with the other units? Should we nerf mams more?

This is just such poor logic it's not worth discussing. Btw you didn't get "mixed feedback" in this thread, literally everyone disagreed with you.
You just want otto to be buffed badly cause you have a fetish with the civ lol
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by bwinner »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Should be in the animations file, but I don't know if there's a "stat" you could read easily. I don't know where that file is either, but I'm sure @EAGLEMUT does
Yeah, it's actually readable, once you extract the animation file itself from whatever art.bar archive it's in.
The location of animation file (within the bar archive) for each unit can be seen referenced in the protounit file:

Code: Select all

<Unit id="946" name="ypSepoy">
<DBID>1400</DBID>
<DisplayNameID>60807</DisplayNameID>
<EditorNameID>60808</EditorNameID>
<PopulationCount>1</PopulationCount>
[...]
<AnimFile>units\asians\natives\sepoy\sepoy.xml</AnimFile>
(yes, it's really in the natives folder...)

Then, in the animation file itself, we can find this:

Code: Select all

<anim>
Volley_standing_attack
<assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
<file>animation_library\range\volley\volley_standing_fire</file>
<tag type="Attack">0.37</tag>
<tag type="SpecificSoundSet" checkvisible="1" set="RifleShot">0.37</tag>
<tag type="Particles" particlename="musketshot">0.37</tag>
</assetreference>
<component>ModelComp</component>
</anim>
My understanding is that this defines the Attack to happen at 0.37s. The Sepoy animation file seems derived from the Janissary, which have same numbers in both ranged and melee attack animations. In comparison, Musketeer has a 0.48 value here, Abus Gun has 0.02.
Does sioux WC have a shorter animation time to take tresure than other explorer? This is something I am totally unsure about but it seems sometimes that he is always winning treasure contention
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Jerimuno »

I think its similar to funes, sioux hero has much faster turning speed than other heroes, which is maybe why it has an advantage in treasure contentions
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Kaiserklein »

I'm sure the animation is as long as for regular explorers when picking up a treasure. And I'd also be surprised if the turning rate was any different.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by bepsi »

Kaiserklein wrote:
aqwer wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.
(...)

You just want otto to be buffed badly cause you have a fetish with the civ lol
That is a bit rich considering that the ESOC enterprise has done little but massively buff civs, and in every imaginable way tried to cater to a certain playstyle, popular among mostly euro-american players. :chinese:
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Kaiserklein »

How
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by EAGLEMUT »

bwinner wrote:Does sioux WC have a shorter animation time to take tresure than other explorer? This is something I am totally unsure about but it seems sometimes that he is always winning treasure contention
Jerimuno wrote:I think its similar to funes, sioux hero has much faster turning speed than other heroes, which is maybe why it has an advantage in treasure contentions
Kaiserklein wrote:I'm sure the animation is as long as for regular explorers when picking up a treasure. And I'd also be surprised if the turning rate was any different.
Well, this is funny; from what I'm seeing, none of your posts are entirely correct.
In comparison to the standard European Explorer, the Sioux Warchief has the same turn rate and slower treasure pickup animation (0.33 vs 0.37). I also double-checked that unit speed doesn't affect the animation length.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
bwinner wrote:Does sioux WC have a shorter animation time to take tresure than other explorer? This is something I am totally unsure about but it seems sometimes that he is always winning treasure contention
Jerimuno wrote:I think its similar to funes, sioux hero has much faster turning speed than other heroes, which is maybe why it has an advantage in treasure contentions
Kaiserklein wrote:I'm sure the animation is as long as for regular explorers when picking up a treasure. And I'd also be surprised if the turning rate was any different.
Well, this is funny; from what I'm seeing, none of your posts are entirely correct.
In comparison to the standard European Explorer, the Sioux Warchief has the same turn rate and slower treasure pickup animation (0.33 vs 0.37). I also double-checked that unit speed doesn't affect the animation length.
What you're forgetting is that the WC's bonus also affects the WC itself. This means its turn rate and perhaps its treasure pickup animation too is slightly faster. That's probably why the WC's treasure pickup animation is 'slower' without the bonus.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Garja »

I'm not sure the WC bonus affects itself. The unit is simply very fast.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:What you're forgetting is that the WC's bonus also affects the WC itself. This means its turn rate and perhaps its treasure pickup animation too is slightly faster. That's probably why the WC's treasure pickup animation is 'slower' without the bonus.
It doesn't affect itself, I don't think there's even any aura that can affect its origin. Regardless, like I said, I've tested that its speed doesn't affect the animation; I did that by reducing the WC's base speed by -77% so that it could barely walk. The animation was the exact same in this case. Turn rate as well.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:
aqwer wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Stop comparing jans to sepoys... Sepoys are broken, obviously jans aren't as good. But if you compare them to the other musks, jans do just fine, including vs cav.
Disappointed. You don't want to fix Jans bcz it shouldn't be as good as sepoy bcz sepoy is broken? Even though Jans are not remotely good as sepoys, less ranged attack, less damage to cav, bad animation, same tc shots (EP).
Okay I will take that then why not fix sepoy, reduce melee base damage or the multiplier. And they also happens to have a card in age II that increases all hand attack.
So every unit from every civ should be equal..? Jans should be buffed because they aren't as good as the best musk unit in the game? Also I love your comparison lmao, you don't mention jans having more HP and being cheaper than sepoys on EP, and no, jans need 1 more tc shot to die... And eaglemut just explained that jans and sepoys have the same animation lol.
What about abus then? They're totally OP, so should we nerf them to the ground to bring them in line with the other units? Should we nerf mams more?

This is just such poor logic it's not worth discussing. Btw you didn't get "mixed feedback" in this thread, literally everyone disagreed with you.
You just want otto to be buffed badly cause you have a fetish with the civ lol
I didn't say that every unit should be same, I just point out some anomalies which bothers me. And you yourself admitted that sepoy are broken ; I am content with both possible solutions i.e. Improve jans hand attack abit or reduce sepoy effective attack vs cav.
And why do India need a well round powerful musketeers while it has specialized HI (rajput) against cav. It is even more logical to reduce sepoy hand attack.
I have already said that in otto discussion thread that Jans rely on their hp to combat cav but since it nerfed a lot; it is logical to increase their hand attack or multiplier.
So if abus are that op why we aren't seeing ff and mass abus every game?
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Kaiserklein »

You can't just isolate a unit and be like "it's so good" or "it's so bad" etc. I could argue that uhlans need to be buffed because they're crappy cav, or that we should give xbows 20 attack because they're probably the worst RI unit in the game.

But in fact you have to put the unit in its context. Yes, abus are broken, we've seen it on stream many times. Why don't we see ff into mass abus every game? Because otto doesn't usually have the eco early on to spam abus while being fortress and making anti cav. So you see, it's more complex than just "stats". If brits could train abus, I can tell you their stats would be heavily nerfed.

So, as long as there's no obvious problem, why do you want to change the unit so much? To me, it seems like otto is rather balanced atm, and jans do fine. You're inventing problems where there aren't any.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by chronique »

Who want see abus dopel compo? That can be realy fun!
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Re: The Janissary Question

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Post by Kaiserklein »

aqwer wrote:So if abus are that op why we aren't seeing ff and mass abus every game?
Ah and btw, I could ask the same question: if jans are so bad we should give them +5 melee attack, why are we seeing people train jans like, every game?
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by dansil92 »

Well considering the recent rajput buffs i wouldn't be surprised to see them make an occasional appearance now
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:
aqwer wrote:So if abus are that op why we aren't seeing ff and mass abus every game?
Ah and btw, I could ask the same question: if jans are so bad we should give them +5 melee attack, why are we seeing people train jans like, every game?
They have to train them one way or another bcz no choice. You want siege, jans : anticav, jans and to balance out composition i.e. Jan abus or jan huss. I don't think ppl train abus cav :uglylol:.
Weak or not they have no choice.
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Re: The Janissary Question

Post by Kaiserklein »

This is so wrong lol. Otto could cav semi like a lot of other civs do, or they can ff. And then in fortress you can make CA, which aren't even bad. You don't need to train jans, and more importantly, you don't have to mass jans... But people do. Because jans aren't bad at all.
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