Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (to EP7)
Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (to EP7)
I'm creating this thread to begin compiling a limited list of changes, intended to address certain balance concerns, before the Winter event. For practical and technical reasons, there will be only one such update before the tournament, and this thread is not to be considered definitive, until that update has been released. In other words, it is subject to change.
Feel free to discuss the current content of the list, ITT. For discussion on any change not currently on the list, instead please refer to the relevant thread, in this forum (I will be making posts there, too, asking for additional input on concerns brought by various players). The idea is to allow for a focused discussion by keeping things tidy. Thank you for not losing your shit, if a given change is not present here, at the given time, and for saving us from ESOC moderating, by respecting this rule.
Please note that changes are based on EP7:
General
– Before Colonial Age, rescued warriors (treasure rewards) now do 1/2 damage to heroes and villagers [partial revert] – "Several players have expressed their concern at captured warrior treasures currently being overnerfed and unviable. Whether or not they are right, starting out at a value that risks being excessively punitive is undesirable, and the nerf remains significant, to say the least."
Aztecs
– Eagle Runner Knight ranged resistance increased to 30% (from 20%) [revert]; speed decreased to 6.0 (from 6.5) [revert] – "The idea was to both help the viability of other anti-cavalry options (specifically the Jaguar Prowl Knight, Puma Spearman and Skull Knight), and avoid the risk of overbuffing the civilization, by nerfing its most viable unit's performance against ranged units. The speed buff is intended to then help the unit better perform its role as pseudo-light cavalry. While I find that intent sound, I agree(d) that it does not justify nerfing the civilization in early Fortress Age, since the unit, while dominant, is fairly counterable, and ERK mono-compositions arguably isn't a pressing issue. As a result, then, the speed buff were undesirable, too. What's more, it's standardizing the unit, and Crackoyote Runners have plenty of speed to catch cavalry."
Chinese
– Iron Flail cost reduced from 240f to 220; bounties adjusted accordingly
– Meteor Hammer cost increased from 175c to 190c; bounties adjusted accordingly – "Some players are concerned that Black Flag Army is too strong. As I've noted before, the first thing to try, is balancing it without limiting its availability. These changes both make Black Flag Army less cost-efficient, and Imperial Army (which practically never sees use in competitive play) more cost efficient, without significantly impacting Forbidden Army. After testing, we should reconsider whether any further changes are desirable. I also had an idea, regarding Chinese dynamic ("random") crate starts, that I would like your feedback on, here."
Indians
– Taj Mahal "Cease Fire" ability no longer halves all military unit speed; instead decreases user's military unit speed by 15% for its duration – "Also addressing concerns about walling exploitation and the risk of sieging shipment points, this change goes even further in addressing the offensive usage of the ability, while being far less intrusive (particularly to non-users). In addition, it makes triggering the ability more of a consideration, and rewards a correct, early response."
Ottomans
– "Mosque Construction" shipment changed from -33% to -60% unique Mosque improvement cost – "Addresses an oversight from when unique Settler-related improvements saw their cost halved, that caused this shipment to increase the cost of those improvements. Please note that this shipment also affects the "Tufanci Corps" (15 Janissaries for 1000w) and "Topcu Corps" (3 Great Bombards for 1500f) improvements available with the "Palace Intrigue" shipment. Thank you to scarm for reporting this oversight!"
Spanish
– Missionary hitpoints decreased to 200 (from 300) – "This will make Unction users more susceptible to having to replace the cheap and fast Missionaries – especially if they are used as tanks, or poorly micro-managed. At the risk of upsetting someone else due to ignorance or poor memory, thank you to LordRaphael for the suggestion, and to iamturk, for doing Garja's work by accelerating feedback on the issue. While it's regrettable that it's no revert, I think this is a great change, regardless of any other ones. We should reconsider whether Unction warrants any more tweaking, in the future."
Feel free to discuss the current content of the list, ITT. For discussion on any change not currently on the list, instead please refer to the relevant thread, in this forum (I will be making posts there, too, asking for additional input on concerns brought by various players). The idea is to allow for a focused discussion by keeping things tidy. Thank you for not losing your shit, if a given change is not present here, at the given time, and for saving us from ESOC moderating, by respecting this rule.
Please note that changes are based on EP7:
General
– Before Colonial Age, rescued warriors (treasure rewards) now do 1/2 damage to heroes and villagers [partial revert] – "Several players have expressed their concern at captured warrior treasures currently being overnerfed and unviable. Whether or not they are right, starting out at a value that risks being excessively punitive is undesirable, and the nerf remains significant, to say the least."
Aztecs
– Eagle Runner Knight ranged resistance increased to 30% (from 20%) [revert]; speed decreased to 6.0 (from 6.5) [revert] – "The idea was to both help the viability of other anti-cavalry options (specifically the Jaguar Prowl Knight, Puma Spearman and Skull Knight), and avoid the risk of overbuffing the civilization, by nerfing its most viable unit's performance against ranged units. The speed buff is intended to then help the unit better perform its role as pseudo-light cavalry. While I find that intent sound, I agree(d) that it does not justify nerfing the civilization in early Fortress Age, since the unit, while dominant, is fairly counterable, and ERK mono-compositions arguably isn't a pressing issue. As a result, then, the speed buff were undesirable, too. What's more, it's standardizing the unit, and Crackoyote Runners have plenty of speed to catch cavalry."
Chinese
– Iron Flail cost reduced from 240f to 220; bounties adjusted accordingly
– Meteor Hammer cost increased from 175c to 190c; bounties adjusted accordingly – "Some players are concerned that Black Flag Army is too strong. As I've noted before, the first thing to try, is balancing it without limiting its availability. These changes both make Black Flag Army less cost-efficient, and Imperial Army (which practically never sees use in competitive play) more cost efficient, without significantly impacting Forbidden Army. After testing, we should reconsider whether any further changes are desirable. I also had an idea, regarding Chinese dynamic ("random") crate starts, that I would like your feedback on, here."
Indians
– Taj Mahal "Cease Fire" ability no longer halves all military unit speed; instead decreases user's military unit speed by 15% for its duration – "Also addressing concerns about walling exploitation and the risk of sieging shipment points, this change goes even further in addressing the offensive usage of the ability, while being far less intrusive (particularly to non-users). In addition, it makes triggering the ability more of a consideration, and rewards a correct, early response."
Ottomans
– "Mosque Construction" shipment changed from -33% to -60% unique Mosque improvement cost – "Addresses an oversight from when unique Settler-related improvements saw their cost halved, that caused this shipment to increase the cost of those improvements. Please note that this shipment also affects the "Tufanci Corps" (15 Janissaries for 1000w) and "Topcu Corps" (3 Great Bombards for 1500f) improvements available with the "Palace Intrigue" shipment. Thank you to scarm for reporting this oversight!"
Spanish
– Missionary hitpoints decreased to 200 (from 300) – "This will make Unction users more susceptible to having to replace the cheap and fast Missionaries – especially if they are used as tanks, or poorly micro-managed. At the risk of upsetting someone else due to ignorance or poor memory, thank you to LordRaphael for the suggestion, and to iamturk, for doing Garja's work by accelerating feedback on the issue. While it's regrettable that it's no revert, I think this is a great change, regardless of any other ones. We should reconsider whether Unction warrants any more tweaking, in the future."
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
I would give the Spanish revert a few more days and recorded games before going through with. I'm NA so maybe I'm out of the loop of what's been going on on streams, but I'd like to see this explored a bit more first.
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Nothing is being done, immediately. This thread is for accessibility's and transparency's sake. While I do think that the complimentary Missionary is "unnecessary", as many others would say, and might well be an overbuff, I can take it or leave it, myself, and minimizing changes is desirable—believe it or not. The reason I suggest reverting that change, (other than my confidence in Unction remaining in a good place, without it), is that several players have already expressed concern about it, in addition to the posts on ESOC.
Waiting isn't an unacceptable option, to me, but it does carry some risk.
Waiting isn't an unacceptable option, to me, but it does carry some risk.
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Feedback since my unfortunately timed post, seems more split, though.zoom wrote:Nothing is being done, immediately. This thread is for accessibility's and transparency's sake. While I do think that the complimentary Missionary is "unnecessary", as many others would say, and might well be an overbuff, I can take it or leave it, myself, and minimizing changes is desirable—believe it or not. The reason I suggest reverting that change, (other than my confidence in Unction remaining in a good place, without it), is that several players have already expressed concern about it, in addition to the posts on ESOC.
Waiting isn't an unacceptable option, to me, but it does carry some risk.
Just one of those days, I guess...
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
All China changes
- chronique
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Yea unction look a little strong , or how my age 2 army with arba (26 atta) hussar (45 atta) rect a goon cuir skirm army by a big "a moov"
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
i wouldnt remove the missionary id lower hp on missionaries
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
also most china changes need to be reverted along with the rusket nerf (just revert to Re)
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
I don't really have much to say in terms of balance and design and shit. I really don't. I'm out of the loop and rusty.
But, please, please, please. May we PLEASE be respectful to @zoom when discussing these topics? Arguments can be made, even strong ones, with a respectful tone. A lot of what annoyed me in other threads was the inability of some people to state their case without also attacking Zoi's ability. Please don't be capricious. Please don't just shit on the patch. Just say your bit, argue vehemently, but do so respectfully. Personally attacking the guy who is putting time and effort into leading this difficult process does nothing.
tl,dr please don't be a cunt to zoi needlessly
edit: to be fair, most people are disagreeing respectfully. some aren't though, even though they have it in themselves to not be a bitch about things.
But, please, please, please. May we PLEASE be respectful to @zoom when discussing these topics? Arguments can be made, even strong ones, with a respectful tone. A lot of what annoyed me in other threads was the inability of some people to state their case without also attacking Zoi's ability. Please don't be capricious. Please don't just shit on the patch. Just say your bit, argue vehemently, but do so respectfully. Personally attacking the guy who is putting time and effort into leading this difficult process does nothing.
tl,dr please don't be a cunt to zoi needlessly
edit: to be fair, most people are disagreeing respectfully. some aren't though, even though they have it in themselves to not be a bitch about things.
- kevinitalien
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
missionaries need a cav tag imochronique wrote:Yea unction look a little strong , or how my age 2 army with arba (26 atta) hussar (45 atta) rect a goon cuir skirm army by a big "a moov"
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
agreed 100%, unction is nice with the missionary and probably not useful without getting one, but the missionaries are too good.Hazza54321 wrote:i wouldnt remove the missionary id lower hp on missionaries
mad cuz bad
- chronique
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
This patch look's realy nice to me
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
There are many changes I dislike but the 3 most impactful changes that need to be reverted are :
1. All the chinese changes
2. Native TP exp (maybe put it on the church instead and make it cost 250w)
3. TP building near opponent's TC
1. All the chinese changes
2. Native TP exp (maybe put it on the church instead and make it cost 250w)
3. TP building near opponent's TC
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Agree with Hazza, nerf missionary stats rather than Unction and see how it plays out. That or change it back to 4%. The free missionary is what makes the card viable.
Russian musketeer change is just meh. Should just match RE.
Portuguese "Berry and hunting gather-rates increased by 5%" also just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a bit much considering just how many changes they received, and given just how strong they were with a very similar change on ASFP.
For me I just want the Chinese banner army changes reverted or at least returned to the Castle. I don't really mind that they're changed, but they are definitely a problem in the War Academy. Having the extra options sounds like a nice QoL change for them, but receiving the extra flexibility for free from the War Academy doesn't blend well with China's compositional design IMO.
Russian musketeer change is just meh. Should just match RE.
Portuguese "Berry and hunting gather-rates increased by 5%" also just doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a bit much considering just how many changes they received, and given just how strong they were with a very similar change on ASFP.
- harcha
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Yeah I always thought that changing the mongolian and black flag armies to something useful is good but adding them to war academy is just too ridiculous. China shouldn't be able to play 20 minute games with just one production facility. Move the new armies back to castle and revert the castle price as it always has been.
As for natives XP - you could integrate this into church building LOS tech rather than just giving it for free.
As for natives XP - you could integrate this into church building LOS tech rather than just giving it for free.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
150 HP missionaries. do rn and wait a week to see how it works. THen nerf unction back to 4 %, if necessary. dont touch the 1 missionary you get. its nice.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
If you want to nerf missionaries to 150HP and %4 attack aura, then card can give 2 missionaries imo.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Heres an example of unctioned gameplay however atp is involved
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/519802770?t=3723s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/519802770?t=3723s
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Would be interested in the rec - do we know @iamturk 's build?Hazza54321 wrote:Heres an example of unctioned gameplay however atp is involved
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/519802770?t=3723s
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
I think missionary change is good, just reduce its hp or increase cost.
And revert otto abus changes to ep6, they were not even a part of ep7 beta, i donno why nerfed last minute.
And revert otto abus changes to ep6, they were not even a part of ep7 beta, i donno why nerfed last minute.
#trainableSpahi
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
PLEASE BUFF RUSSIA TO THE MAX. WE CAN JUST REVERT IF TOO POWERFUL. THANK YOU!
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
I definitely dont think that missionaries need the cav tag, that just makes yet ANOTHER unit of spain that struggles against goons (or rifle roders for that matter). I agree with above, lower hp slightly, 150-200 ish
- harcha
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
they already have 7 speed, they are not supposed to be unkillable...dansil92 wrote:I definitely dont think that missionaries need the cav tag, that just makes yet ANOTHER unit of spain that struggles against goons (or rifle roders for that matter). I agree with above, lower hp slightly, 150-200 ish
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
Its more about getting sniped by infantry or stopping them tank in the front. Like dansil said we dont need to overcomplicate it , its a monk after all.
Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)
It also makes sense for monks to have low HP. They are untrained in fighting and wear no armor.
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