Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (to EP7)

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France chronique
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by chronique »

Goodspeed wrote:It also makes sense for monks to have low HP. They are untrained in fighting and wear no armor.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Can we just copy AoE2's monks already? Let them convert other units (including mercs and artillery) once Unction has been sent. Bring some flavor into the game.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Astaroth »

Am I missing something?

Missionaries were basically never used. Now they got a relatively small buff (plus 25 % of their unit boosting ability from 4 to 5 percent) and suddenly that warrants a nerf of their HP from 300 to 150 (as LordRaphael said), ie of 50 %, probably rendering them worse than b4, when they werent even used?

Is the unit really OP? Or are people just surprised by their use and thus consider them OP because they dont know how to deal with them (yet)?
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by princeofcarthage »

Give missionaries 0% resistance. Tanking with missionaries is double edged sword. You have to understand that even if ppl tank with missionaries, losing a missionary is more than losing 1 unit. However I do think missionary cost should be increased if not reverted to full RE. That would push the players to be more conservative with them and tank only in extreme cases which is fine/justified.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Goodspeed »

Is the unit really OP? Or are people just surprised by their use and thus consider them OP because they dont know how to deal with them (yet)?
Some combination of the two. I think it probably was already viable but people needed that extra little push to start seriously testing it.
But I don't think an HP nerf is a bad thing, even if the unit isn't OP. Its high HP makes no sense anyway, and given the design of the unit it should be snipeable imo.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Astaroth »

If a unit that is average at best (Idk, maybe it is OP, but that isnt really proven) gets nerfed significantly, then chances are it just wont be used.

The question is always what your goal is: do you want the game to adhere to arbitrary "design" standards (what is the unit's "design" if the game devs developed it with high HP?! Who says a unit must fulfill a particularly "realistic" role? Is it any more realistic that a monk unit of a Christian civilisation can "convert" (?!) an enemy also Christian unit at massive range?)? Even if the consequence is that units just don't get used?

IMO the goal should be unit and strat diversity within the constraints of balance. If strong missionaries mean that Spain goes age2 more often and/or does sth else than their classic aggro FF, then I'm all for it, as long as missionaries don't become the best option for Spain in all cases or are uncounterable by other civs.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by chronique »

Goodspeed wrote:
But I don't think an HP nerf is a bad thing, even if the unit isn't OP. Its high HP makes no sense anyway, and given the design of the unit it should be snipeable imo.
Sepoy have better multiplication vs cav than jan make no more sense :D
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

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Post by zoom »

According to the OP, don't expect a reply on topics not closely related to the list's content, ITT. In fact, expect ESOC moderating! I also wish, in passing, to express my happiness at the amount of constructive criticism and testing. It's most useful!
Lukas_L99 wrote:All China changes :chinese:
Like I've said, I'm willing to consider reverting most changes, in the future. Please keep the Chinese discussion to this thread, though.

Seeing as everybody went from saying "every single change should be reverted" to "please don't revert the most superfluous change in the patch", seemingly the moment I expressed my intent to do the latter, I've decided to replace the suggestion to remove the complimentary Missionary, with one to decrease Missionary hitpoints from 300 to 200. This will make Unction users more susceptible to having to replace the cheap and fast Missionaries – especially if they are poorly micro-managed, or used as tanks. At the risk of upsetting someone else due to ignorance or poor memory, thank you to LordRaphael for the suggestion, and to iamturk, for doing Garja's work by accelerating feedback on the issue. While it's regrettable that it's no revert, I think this is a great change, regardless of any other ones. We should reconsider whether Unction warrants any more nerfs, in the future.

OP updated accordingly.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by dansil92 »

I think perhaps 200 hp may be more reasonable, with testing. Im really glad to see spain getting some reasonable age 2 options- perhaps 24 attack crossbows and 55 attack huss are a bit much, but its not like you dont have to invest a lot into the build and spain doesnt have, aside from their hussars, any exceptionally overpowered units in colonial. Yeah their pikes and rodeleros are good at what they do but they are still pikes. I for one am happy to see unction making an appearance, and really helping set spain apart as a unique civ
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by zoom »

kevinitalien wrote:
chronique wrote:Yea unction look a little strong :D , or how my age 2 army with arba (26 atta) hussar (45 atta) rect a goon cuir skirm army by a big "a moov" :D
missionaries need a cav tag imo
While that might make intuitive and technical sense, it wouldn't be very meaningful, unless you were fisting heavy infantry with them.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Goodspeed »

Astaroth wrote:If a unit that is average at best (Idk, maybe it is OP, but that isnt really proven) gets nerfed significantly, then chances are it just wont be used.
Something to note here is that an HP nerf isn't significant. The unit is mostly used for its buffs, not for tanking.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
Astaroth wrote:If a unit that is average at best (Idk, maybe it is OP, but that isnt really proven) gets nerfed significantly, then chances are it just wont be used.
Something to note here is that an HP nerf isn't significant. The unit is mostly used for its buffs, not for tanking.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Aizamk »

Priests in general have always been super good tankers. The only issue to me here for Spain is the cost; for Russia you generally needed team cheap priests to make the spam efficient, but for Spain it’s 100 resources by default. I would still advocate a standardized 75/75 cost change regardless of if you’re nerfing HP or not.
oranges.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by dansil92 »

I would almost want them just to be 150 coin tbh
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Jaeger »

I just noticed that 13 Jaegar shipment got nerfed to 12. I'm pretty sad about this sort of change. I think having that a civ having something really good is fun. One of the things you look forward to when playing Germany is shipping the OP jaegars, but now it's now its slightly less exciting; closer to "just a skirm shipment". If you nerf stuff that is "a bit stronger than normal", and just normalize everything, I think the game is less fun.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by harcha »

On the unction stuffs - suggest missionaries be reverted to EP price and stats. Once unction is sent missionaries get -50% hp. IMO it was intended to be used similar to advanced arsenal - something that you send late game to upgrade your units
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by chronique »

harcha wrote:On the unction stuffs - suggest missionaries be reverted to EP price and stats. Once unction is sent missionaries get -50% hp. IMO it was intended to be used similar to advanced arsenal - something that you send late game to upgrade your units
No way lol. This is unbealivable, spain have no usfull upg that mean shit army all the game. If unction become usfull after 25 min, well this card will be out of my deck just like before.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by harcha »

well as it is the best age 2 upgrade it will still be sent relatively early. i came up with a better option - you could keep the ep missionary price as is but make them more expensive after unction (like how old han reforms works)
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by chronique »

Or we can make theme more expensive but the card can give 2 missionnary. That mean a little but significant bonus (like a daymo) earlier, and more difficult to reach the full power.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by zoom »

ovi12 wrote:I just noticed that 13 Jaegar shipment got nerfed to 12. I'm pretty sad about this sort of change. I think having that a civ having something really good is fun. One of the things you look forward to when playing Germany is shipping the OP jaegars, but now it's now its slightly less exciting; closer to "just a skirm shipment". If you nerf stuff that is "a bit stronger than normal", and just normalize everything, I think the game is less fun.
I completely agree with your sentiment. Sometimes, exceptions may be warranted, though. Since the unit was underpriced, this shipment was stronger than every other mercenary shipment, and nerfing "13 Jaegers" was highly requested, among players, as it was widely considered to contribute to making Germans overpowered.

I hope it's some consolation that the shipment remains strong (it's probably quite similar to "9 Black Riders, in relative strength, now), and that a 1/13 nerf to it is unlikely to render it unviable.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by zoom »

Added the following change, to the OP:

– Before Colonial Age, rescued warriors (treasure rewards) now do 1/2 damage to heroes and villagers [partial revert] – "Several players have expressed their concern at captured warrior treasures currently being overnerfed and unviable. Whether or not they are right, starting out at a value that risks being excessively punitive is undesirable, and the nerf remains significant, to say the least."

Thank you all for your continued feedback, which helps make for debate, and well-informed decisions!
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nats are 1) an extra scout 2) an extra unit to help you treasuring 3) an extra unit once in age 2. Even if they did zero damage to explorers and vils in age 1, they'd still be decent treasures lol. I don't understand how anyone can say that nat treasures are currently "unviable", that sounds like a large pile of bullshit to me.
Anyway, x0.5 vs explos is fine I think, I don't mind that. However, I think x0.25 vs vils is better, I wouldn't touch it.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Also about germany and jaegers, I'm sure ger will still be almost as strong on tp maps as it used to be (aka too strong). I doubt the xp nerf does much, and neither does -1 jaeger, especially since in many games you don't even ship that card.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by zoom »

Aizamk wrote:Priests in general have always been super good tankers. The only issue to me here for Spain is the cost; for Russia you generally needed team cheap priests to make the spam efficient, but for Spain it’s 100 resources by default. I would still advocate a standardized 75/75 cost change regardless of if you’re nerfing HP or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with that change, but it might negatively impact the viability of Unction, and it's notable that the Missionary has a build limit of 10, unlike the Priest. Let's start with a single nerf, instead of a double; then reconsider.
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Re: Limited Pre-Winter Adjustments (EP7)

Post by zoom »

Added the following change (OP updated accordingly):

– Taj Mahal "Cease Fire" ability no longer halves all military unit speed; instead decreases user's military unit speed by 15% for its duration – "Also addressing concerns about walling exploitation and the risk of sieging shipment points, this change goes even further in addressing the offensive usage of the ability, while being far less intrusive (particularly to non-users). In addition, it makes triggering the ability more of a consideration, and rewards a correct, early response."

Depending on results, replacing the ability remains an option, in the future.

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