EP 7.1.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

[n0el]

Also, can we stop making arguments using an equivalent wood per coin? That is so irrelevant as a way of looking at things in practice. This kind of theory crafting only serves to back people's arguments without actually examining the practical implications.

[zoom]

Although it's possible that you are right, I am confident in testing the Stagecoach change, since I think it has good potential, and practically no risk. I'm happy to consider reverting it, in the future.

I think avoiding the stagecoach with your units is skill. Also you only need 1 tp on the line to get line of sight yourself so it's quite fair. I just don't see the point of that change, but it's not a big deal anyway.

Although I like the change, itself, I can take or leave the Organ packing time buff. I do think it's risky, and the unit has already received two other buffs. Reverting it made particular sense in light of Artillery Foundry buff. I'm considering reinstating it, though.

Well, the training time buff is basically irrelevant. For one thing in most games you're just shipping 2 organs, for another training time on cannons barely matters because they train extremely fast already (for such expensive units) and your main concern is to get a good batch of them out, not to pop them 5 seconds earlier.
The speed buff is nice I guess. But what really matters is that organs need to be able to shoot lol. Like, especially for the first volley, opponent used to be able to just go back and organs just wouldn't shoot (where falcs would get a full volley). So if anything, revert the speed buff if you want, and keep the unpacking buff.

As far as the Village cost buff goes, please understand that the armies are being moved back to the Castle, not otherwise reverted, and see my above post, then elaborate.

Well that's just even weirder than before. These armies are ugly and unnecessary. I wish they would just be reverted (and so does basically everyone else, btw).
I guess that means the new armies won't be used in early game anymore, but in middle game when you can afford a second building, you'll just drop a castle for mapcontrol (costs only 50w 50g more than a rax) and train changdao+meteor just as before. Also no one will ever train keshik+steppe, as you don't stay in colo long enough to reach the point where you'd build a castle anyway.

Avoiding Stagecoach line of sight does require skill. With this change, using the sheer skill required, will be less disproportionately overdimensioned, compared to that required in order to build and defend an in-base TP. Let's reconsider whether desirable, after testing. In the mean time, tweaked from 3 to 5.

Organ train-time buff is overall slight, but situationally more significant. The point is that the triple-buff is likely both undesirable and risky, in the context of EP7. Will consider reverting speed buff, instead.

Actually, preliminary feedback indicates that moving the armies to the Castle is quite popular, and that many players who object to them, currently, would be fine with them, then. It would make more sense, to me, to test them at the War Academy first, instead of jumping to conclusions. Still, this is a reasonable compromise, all things considered—it even helps the previous unviability of training artillery. Personally, ugly is the last thing I would call them, but – like weirdness – beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Speaking of bias and jumping to conclusions, let's find out what will (and will not) be, then reasonably respond to it. That should yield the best end results. There are many options, to me. We just shouldn't make any further hasty and unsubstantiated changes, with insufficient feedback.

Thanks!

[zoom]

@zoom But you are only considering the effects of the initial village(s). It is just as important on villages (2), 3, 4 etc... Especially when China is almost never chopping wood and when relying on the tower, they are waiting only slowed down because they are at their pop max. This is an equally big buff to the mid game, where they are already extremely strong.

First, I am not only considering the initial Villages; it is simply the case that they are more significant. I should have more explicitly expressed this. Second, saying that Chinese is extremely strong in the mid-game, with the suggested changes (and without the Village buff, mind you), seems a little silly. "Balanced" would be more realistic an opinion, to me. Third, we should consider 190w Villages, then, out of respect for these dissenting opinions, even if they have yet to address the points I've been making, for instance in my previous reply to you.

Thanks!

[zoom]

Also, can we stop making arguments using an equivalent wood per coin? That is so irrelevant as a way of looking at things in practice. This kind of theory crafting only serves to back people's arguments without actually examining the practical implications.

I mean, we could, if we want to arrive at conclusions that are more inaccurate (in practice). If you get 100f instead of 100w, you are effectively ~40w's worth of vill-seconds worse off. What about that fact, do you find practically irrelevant – what practical implications are being missed?

[Garja]

Just leave China with random crate and no bs village cost change. Civ is ok now.
As for stagecoach LOS why even from 15 to 3. If anything change it from 15 to 10 or something? Also give it to TWC civs too.

[Hazza54321]

id rather no civ had stagecoach LOS tbh

[[Armag] diarouga]

id rather no civ had stagecoach LOS tbh

+1

[harcha]

move LOS to train?

[deleted_user]

move LOS to train?

This would add incentive for an otherwise useless upgrade in supremacy.

[n0el]

Also, can we stop making arguments using an equivalent wood per coin? That is so irrelevant as a way of looking at things in practice. This kind of theory crafting only serves to back people's arguments without actually examining the practical implications.

I mean, we could, if we want to arrive at conclusions that are more inaccurate (in practice). If you get 100f instead of 100w, you are effectively ~40w's worth of vill-seconds worse off. What about that fact, do you find practically irrelevant – what practical implications are being missed?

I said coin. Food and wood equivalency are different, because in age 1 for China (as an example) coin is meaningless. In theory, 100c = some amount of wood, yes. In practice they aren’t equal, because in order for them to be equal you must trade them at the market. If I trade them at the market, it means I have to make a market which costs 100w. So if I have a 200w start, I spend 100w on a market, now I trend 125 c for wood I’m at a break even point. For European or TWC civs this is fine, because it’s now a relatively easy transition to get to an upgrade they prefer in age 1, hunting dogs. For Japan or China, that isn’t the case. It means you are giving up a TP or a villager or a shrine for 5% gathering.

[Garja]

why useless, train is pretty good espesically with TWC civs

[Mitoe]

id rather no civ had stagecoach LOS tbh

I'd rather all civs had stagecoach LOS tbh

[Challenger_Marco]

Or simply add another tech in tp to get stagecoach LOS tbh

[[Armag] diarouga]

id rather no civ had stagecoach LOS tbh

I'd rather all civs had stagecoach LOS tbh

+2

[Kaiserklein]

All civs currently do have stagecoach LOS, they fixed it. I think it's fine the way it is.

[WickedCossack]

Not that it is a big deal but not having stagecoach LOS is surely preferable to having it? Random RNG that the wagon comes along and scouts your raid since you can't see the wagon is a bit dumb. Its not like the guy with 4/5 tps on any cross tp map like high plains and arizona etc needs extra LOS anyways.

[Hazza54321]

exactly my point, also if once person steals a tp then he also gets vision of the entire stagecoach meaning the guy with 4 tps is punished for researching stagecoach, surely the los of the tps and the resources given from the tps is enough for a 400res upgrade. can feel too restricted if the map is cut in half due to RNG

[Kaiserklein]

For me at this point it's just part of the game... I've become used to avoiding having vils/building stuff/bringing units too close to the tp line. You can basically always dodge the wagon lol. I think you guys are nitpicking honestly.

[zoom]

Just leave China with random crate and no bs village cost change. Civ is ok now.
As for stagecoach LOS why even from 15 to 3. If anything change it from 15 to 10 or something? Also give it to TWC civs too.

At this time, considering player concern regarding crate starts, and the significant nerfs to the civilization, scrapping it, altogether, simply isn't an option. I'm confident 190w Villages won't be a problem, though.

Stagecoach line of sight nerf is being tweaked from 3 to 5, and all expansion civilizations were already granted shared line of sight, with the unit, with EP7.0. This is a bug fix, as Eaglemut found, from data files, that it was intended, but incompetently (and unsuccessfully) implemented, since they forgot to enable shared line of sight)

[zoom]

move LOS to train?

As you might figure, I've already considered that. There's two issues with the idea:

1. It disables players from knowing when resources are being delivered to a given TP.
2. It more drastically changes the mechanic, completely removing it.

In case it's unclear: "Iron Horse" ('train') remains at line of sight 15.

Let's test this, and evaluate results. Thanks!

[zoom]

move LOS to train?

This would add incentive for an otherwise useless upgrade in supremacy.

That's a great idea!

In some cases, Stagecoach scouting causes significant disruption to balance and gameplay, alike; whether or not an improved Trade Route is fully controlled by a single team, it exceedingly and variably punishes or rewards map control. For instance, a central Trade Route perpendicular to game flow (Garja bless the ghost of H2O) – such as that on High Plains – probably shouldn't render scouting obsolete, revealing any enemy army movement to whomever has a Trading Post. Likewise, a Trade Route with an in-base Trading Post probably shouldn't reveal all army movement of the player with the incentive to research Stagecoach, ie map control. Beyond limiting these risks, placing greater emphasis on awareness and positioning to deny or gain scouting information, this change also adds value to the underwhelming at best "Iron Horse" ('train') improvement, which now provides greater benefit.

[Garja]

190w village is the most ugliest thing since sandals over socks

[Mitoe]

Not that it is a big deal but not having stagecoach LOS is surely preferable to having it? Random RNG that the wagon comes along and scouts your raid since you can't see the wagon is a bit dumb. Its not like the guy with 4/5 tps on any cross tp map like high plains and arizona etc needs extra LOS anyways.

If anything the LOS benefits the person playing against the stagecoach boom. As long as they have 1 TP they get a lot of information, whereas the person who has the whole line doesn't really get much additional information. Isn't that healthy counterplay?

Overall though I just feel this change is nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, as Kaiser said. I don't really see any big balance implications, which is the reason I would prefer to scrap the change rather than keep it.


On other changes, I think that villages should not be changed. That's just asking for trouble and feels very unnatural.

– Taj Mahal "Cease Fire" ability no longer halves all military unit speed; instead decreases user's military unit speed by 15% for its duration

This doesn't really fix anything from the previous patch or the current change. Let's just try reducing the duration of the ceasefire instead and see what happens.

[n0el]

Why doesn’t that fix cease fire? It seems like the best solution possible. Doesn’t affect the defensive aspect from saving vils but limits Offensive use.

[Garja]

los or no los is purely a design thing. I think it is a nice feature