EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Are you satisfied with the following EP change: “- Uhlan hitpoints decreased to 180 (from 190)“

Yes
45
44%
No
58
56%
 
Total votes: 103

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United States of America Cometk
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EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Cometk »

Spurred by recent discussions.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

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Post by dansil92 »

I feel like this change was essentially made to change the number of huss hits it takes to kill, which feels pretty euro-centric. The only other units off the top of my head that 10 hp discrepancy really makes much difference against is Pumas, which take 3 hits on ep instead of 4; sepoy which take 4 melee swings instead of 5- HOWEVER since you essentially always get a ranged shot off, its basically always 4 swings on RE too.
All it does is reduce the unit's viability vs skirm masses while (apart from huss and puma) doing very little at affecting its performance against almost all other units.

I am in favour of reducing the skirm shipments by either a single skirm or a single uhlan and reverting the hp, which in addition to the small jaeger nerf, should bring Germany into a nice place.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by dansil92 »

Were those... yabusame..?
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Cometk »

dansil92 wrote:Were those... yabusame..?
yabusame are a good unit vs fre dutch ger :biggrin:
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

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Post by Cometk »

The Uhlan hitpoints nerf, when it was introduced, certainly made sense as a change that could get the most done out of the smallest change. The unit nowadays, while still used and necessary to the German composition, is only situationally powerful, while at other times underperforming hard.

What I might propose as an alternative would be to revert the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, and introduce a new nerf to all German Fortress Age shipments that means they are only granted 2 additional uhlans with every shipment rather than 3. As it was never an aspect of German play that was considered problematic, this would make German Colonial less disproportionately punished, as well as improving Uhlan viability at all stages of the game while more accurately curtailing the original problem that was Germany's Fortress Age mass. I think that this proposed alternative could be kept with the EP7 change of nerfing Germany's shipment progression.

Current ESOC Patch sees Colonial Germany with a nerfed shipment progression and Uhlans, while having buffed Xbowmen and Doppelsoldners. This proposed change would have that the only nerfed aspect of German Colonial play be their shipment progression, while their expensive unique units would retain or be somewhat buffed in strength. That would improve their Colonial viability overall, improving their chances of success on No-TP maps, while head-on addressing the issue that is their Fortress Age mass.

tl;dr
An alternative to the Uhlan Hitpoints nerf

– Uhlan hitpoints increased to 190 (from 180) [revert]
– All Fortress Age shipments grant 1 fewer Uhlan (& mercenary shipments adjusted accordingly)
– "Lipizzaner Cavalry" shipment decreased to +15% (from 25%) Uhlan attack & hitpoints [revert]

Positives: Colonial is more viable, No-TP map performance is improved because of better Colonial viability, Fortress Age retains similar-to-current balance while the German composition is granted better mid-to-lategame scalability
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Post by Guigs »

Cometk wrote:The Uhlan hitpoints nerf, when it was introduced, certainly made sense as a change that could get the most done out of the smallest change. The unit nowadays, while still used and necessary to the German composition, is only situationally powerful, while at other times underperforming hard.

What I might propose as an alternative would be to revert the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, and introduce a new nerf to all German Fortress Age shipments that means they are only granted 2 additional uhlans with every shipment rather than 3. As it was never an aspect of German play that was considered problematic, this would make German Colonial less disproportionately punished, as well as improving Uhlan viability at all stages of the game while more accurately curtailing the original problem that was Germany's Fortress Age mass. I think that this proposed alternative could be kept with the EP7 change of nerfing Germany's shipment progression.

Current ESOC Patch sees Colonial Germany with a nerfed shipment progression and Uhlans, while having buffed Xbowmen and Doppelsoldners. This proposed change would have that the only nerfed aspect of German Colonial play be their shipment progression, while their expensive unique units would retain or be somewhat buffed in strength. That would improve their Colonial viability overall, improving their chances of success on No-TP maps, while head-on addressing the issue that is their Fortress Age mass.

tl;dr
An alternative to the Uhlan Hitpoints nerf

– Uhlan hitpoints increased to 190 (from 180) [revert]
– All Fortress Age shipments grant 1 fewer Uhlan (& mercenary shipments adjusted accordingly)
– "Lipizzaner Cavalry" shipment decreased to +15% (from 25%) Uhlan attack & hitpoints [revert]

Positives: Colonial is more viable, No-TP map performance is improved because of better Colonial viability, Fortress Age retains similar-to-current balance while the German composition is granted better mid-to-lategame scalability
That doesn't make colonial more viable, same for no tp map. other than that i'd sacrifice one extra uhlan per age 3 shipment to have something performing like a decent cav for sure
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Post by Cometk »

Lecastete wrote:That doesn't make colonial more viable, same for no tp map. other than that i'd sacrifice one extra uhlan per age 3 shipment to have something performing like a decent cav for sure
Why wouldn't it make German colonial stronger? Uhlans would be strictly buffed in Age 2. That makes any variation of the semi-FF stronger, as well as extended Colonial play arguably buffed from RE, considering the buffs to Xbowmen and Dopps.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by gibson »

Obviously it makes it MORE viable, although still probably not viable it some mus.
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Post by Guigs »

British grenadiers were buffed and therefore they are more viable. Doesn't mean it's good xD
Same story with german age 2, adding 10 hp to their main unit makes them "more viable", doesn't mean playing german age 2 is good
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

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Post by Mitoe »

Other changes are just so bad and ugly though

If you really want to make them better in age 2 without affecting age 3 as much just buff cav hp to 20%. That way it helps if you play Colo but not Fortress until later.

Really though Germans are balanced right now.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Frosty_2 »

Let's just have one unit for each civ..with same specification so as not to have any confusion.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Challenger_Marco »

Already Uhlans are paper now you wanna make them toilet paper? No thanks
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

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Post by Sargsyan »

Challenger_Marco wrote:Already Uhlans are paper now you wanna make them toilet paper? No thanks
toilet paper lmao, marco youre a gift from the heaven
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by aligator92 »

Cometk wrote:(& mercenary shipments adjusted accordingly)
only 8 Blackriders? :cry:
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

if your reducing uhlans by 1 in age 3, dont tinker with the mercs as i Like the 9 black riders / 8 hackapells as it is thank you
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Sargsyan »

yeah 1 uhlan isn't exactly worth 1 merc unit germans have
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Mitoe wrote:Other changes are just so bad and ugly though

If you really want to make them better in age 2 without affecting age 3 as much just buff cav hp to 20%. That way it helps if you play Colo but not Fortress until later.

Really though Germans are balanced right now.
Whats your obsession with it being “ugly” or poor “design wise”. Surely balance and making the unit usuable and more fun should be a top priority. It really feels stupid having to avoid engaging huss in age 2 despite “excelling in melee fights”. The break points are so huge on so many units its actually legit retarded. 1 less tc hit (huss do a great job idling especially compared to uhlans) , 1 less rusket hit, 1 less sepoy hit in melee, 1 less puma hit, 1 less huss hit. 1 less goon hit for a vet uhlan (i think?).

Not to mention how quickly they die to ranged fire and decent kiting.

Also how all their upgrade cards have been nerfed due to lower base stats. Zois been arguing that the age 4 uhlan card buff compensates for that, however the earlier upgrades occur in 99% of games meanwhile the age 4 card occurs in probably under 10% .

People say uhlans have advantages over huss like raiding and flanking. However both of those kinda rely on your opponents mistake. Uhlan raids are great but you still cant get anywhere near that tc, and as res are in base for a short while they shouldnt really be that useful.

With the nerf to the age 3 german shipments it targets their main problems with having too much stuff in fortress. These nerfs have made german more one dimensional than before due to solely relying on their fortress timings rather than having options in colonial or even in late fortress.
Targeting the shipments also means you avoid “ugly” and imo poor choices of nerfs such as xp rate nerf and nerfing a core unit in the german composition that was not amazing to begin with. You could see the melee advantages on RE for example vs huss and even pikes
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by chronique »

Why not revert ulhan like the old nilla time? I mean, 190hp but *0.8 atta vs vili?
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Hazza54321 »

No
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

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Post by WickedCossack »

With the current balance set-up the huss break point seems pretty necessary. Otherwise TP first uhlan semis are going to back to dominating the huss semi civs like dutch, port, french and have the game on lock down before the age 3 reduction even comes into effect.

Anyways from what I've seen Germans are still a top pick in tournaments and each game involves a lot of Uhlans (trained as well as shipped.) I would be very careful putting through a change that could be a significant boost when they are already a very competitive civilization.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by princeofkabul »

as if this game didn't have poor or ugly design changes in ep before. Also the suggested idea isn't even in the same category as some of the changes done.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by gamevideo113 »

Revert HP nerf, remove 3SW and change 2SW to infinite 2SW. Semi-FF is nerfed, everything else isn't touched. Everybody happy.

The alternative is like 200HP 25%rr uhlans or something like that.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by princeofkabul »

gamevideo113 wrote:Revert HP nerf, remove 3SW and change 2SW to infinite 2SW. Semi-FF is nerfed, everything else isn't touched. Everybody happy.

The alternative is like 200HP 25%rr uhlans or something like that.
more like nobody is happy.
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Re: EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

Post by Goodspeed »

I think a better way to make uhlans more viable, if that's really necessary, is to reduce cost. Better than reverting the HP change, that is.

But is it necessary? Are people not training uhlans anymore? Out of the resources Germans spend on military, what % is spent on uhlans? If people are mostly training skirm/ww and only begrudgingly upgrading uhlans nowadays, there's something to be said for increasing viability. But if people are still happy to train the unit, which has been the case in previous EP versions despite the -10 HP, the view that it's "garbage" remains simply a knee-jerk response to change, specifically the fact that it's no longer the only unit trained which can only be good for the civ and the game. I'll remind you all that back on RE patch people often never even made a barracks as Germans (and no WW either).

If it's only a problem in teamgames, a good fix that doesn't mess with 1v1 balance might be to give Germans a colonial TEAM cavalry upgrade card that upgrades all or only melee cav HP by some percentage.

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