EP Uhlan Hitpoints Poll

[Goodspeed]

I just dont get why we dont do the change that 90 percent of people who play on ep think is a good idea

There's no such change

[stanleywinston]

I just dont get why we dont do the change that 90 percent of people who play on ep think is a good idea

There's no such change

Yes there is, 90% of EP players would agree with Uhlan HP revert, XP nerf stays and in fortress 2x 8 Uhlans, and 2x 7 skirms + 3 uhlans. Just poll it and see.

[Goodspeed]

So compared to current Germany, which people say is balanced, you would be buffing uhlans by 10 hp which is apparently a big deal (difference between the unit being "garbage" and them being nearly the only thing trained), and to make up for it you're nerfing their army size by a total of 1 uhlan and 1 skirm in fortress age?

I highly doubt 90% of players would agree with that. Then again, 90% of players are pretty clueless so maybe.

[Hazza54321]

the only thing trained? what planet are you living on? you would understand if u actually played the game. i have no idea where you get this 80% uhlan + skirm composition idea from but its just flatout wrong, noobs were just overmaking skirms vs germans and then wondered why theres so many uhlans.

german is probably balanced on tp maps but to the extent of ruining a key unit in their composition. i wont even get into how horrible they are on non tp.

I think its been said by many people for literally years now (that doesnt seem to get in your head), is that the shipments are the problem. You bring the argument "its their civ bonus to have strong shipments", thats like if brit got 5 vills per manor house and refusing to nerf it because its their civ bonus and nerfing musketeers to 100hp

[Mitoe]

I agree with GoodSpeed though. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Honestly I kind of feel like people just want Germany to be a top civ for some reason.

[Goodspeed]

the only thing trained? what planet are you living on? you would understand if u actually played the game. i have no idea where you get this 80% uhlan + skirm composition idea from but its just flatout wrong, noobs were just overmaking skirms vs germans and then wondered why theres so many uhlans.

Nearly* the only thing trained. And I did play the game in the RE days, and it was not uncommon on high levels of play for Germans to train 100% uhlans and ship skirms and jaegers. And many top players were of the opinion that the optimal way to play the German mirror was to train and ship only uhlans and BR. Not that they were necessarily right, but even the fact that they thought so (and given that people currently think the unit is garbage) shows how much of a difference this 10 hp made. My point was that there's no way you're making up for that revert by nerfing their army size by a mere 2 units in mid fortress age.

I think its been said by many people for literally years now (that doesnt seem to get in your head), is that the shipments are the problem. You bring the argument "its their civ bonus to have strong shipments", thats like if brit got 5 vills per manor house and refusing to nerf it because its their civ bonus and nerfing musketeers to 100hp

Germans have been balanced in many iterations of the game without nerfing their civ bonus. So if your point is that this is the only way to fix them, you're demonstrably wrong. Yes, their shipments are strong, but that doesn't mean nerfing them is the only way (or the best way) to fix the civ. I know you don't care about game design, but you should. If you don't, it's easy to fall into the trap of standardization. If you're not careful with it, you end up severely damaging civ diversity. Case in point: ASFP.

[Imperial Noob]

5x240c = 1200c
1200c - 600c = 600 worth of units, which is elegant

You mean 300 res worth of units? You're not getting 2 uhlans with it

You are right... so now it is a 260 res shipment? LMAO, how shit... EP fix pls.

dopp shipment is worth 325f 575c = 900,
uhlan 250f 500c = 750,
xbow 420f 320w 200c = 940,

And here 260? That's less viable than 3 free grizzlies... and it's supposed to be a civ bonus...

6 landsknechts for 500c (-2 uhlans) would relatively be a 640c worth of (fortress = +20%) units, so 768c
That's about the worth of the dopp shipment, and requires a timing. I think it should be done.

[Garja]

The HP nerf originated from the fact that they do incredibly well vs hussar, meaning it's a very good unit and subject to a nerf if the civ needs one.
I think we can live with 190hp as long as the civ is nerfed enough in other aspects. For sure can't allow Germans to have huge ulhan mass in the fortress age if the unit is again more than legit.

[Cometk]

I agree with GoodSpeed though. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. Honestly I kind of feel like people just want Germany to be a top civ for some reason.

No, players just don’t want the consistent experience of having their rather expensive cavalry mass getting shredded by ranged units before they can even reach impact

If the 2 2 4 addtl uhlan change weren’t enough then find an additional way to nerf them that doesn’t touch Uhlan HP.

[Goodspeed]

I think a better way to make uhlans more viable, if that's really necessary, is to reduce cost. Better than reverting the HP change, that is.

But is it necessary? Are people not training uhlans anymore? Out of the resources Germans spend on military, what % is spent on uhlans? If people are mostly training skirm/ww and only begrudgingly upgrading uhlans nowadays, there's something to be said for increasing viability.

Can someone answer this?

[SoldieR]

Paper uhlan


Enough paper cuts can kill you

[Darwin_]

Just revert all german changes (except for lipizzaner buff, that is essential for team games) and give them 250w TP's in age 1.

[zoom]

I think a better way to make uhlans more viable, if that's really necessary, is to reduce cost. Better than reverting the HP change, that is.

But is it necessary? Are people not training uhlans anymore? Out of the resources Germans spend on military, what % is spent on uhlans? If people are mostly training skirm/ww and only begrudgingly upgrading uhlans nowadays, there's something to be said for increasing viability.

Can someone answer this?

For lack of a figure, I will say good players seem to train plenty of Uhlans in 1vs1 and team-games alike. I'm confident that the unit's viability isn't a current issue of significance. Like I've already noted, the concern rather remains the reception of the change.

[zoom]

So compared to current Germany, which people say is balanced, you would be buffing uhlans by 10 hp which is apparently a big deal (difference between the unit being "garbage" and them being nearly the only thing trained), and to make up for it you're nerfing their army size by a total of 1 uhlan and 1 skirm in fortress age?

I highly doubt 90% of players would agree with that. Then again, 90% of players are pretty clueless so maybe.

I must have tried to explain this very point hundreds of times, over the course of the change's existance. It seems some people in this community struggle to accept or understand certain things. Thankfully, there are some viable options:

2. -1 Uhlan per Fortress Age shipment (mercenary shipments adjusted accordingly) and decreased income (by at least 20%; tweakable) from Trading Posts in Discovery Age only.
3. -1 Uhlan per Fortress Age shipment (mercenary shipments adjusted accordingly), decreased income (by at least 20%; tweakable) from unupgraded Trading Posts only and 10% shipment penalty removed

[zoom]

plz, no more change for the germans, the uhlan has 180 hp and the penalty of exp is already a good nerf so why nerf this civ again :(

There is currently no plan to nerf Germans. There will be if players consider the civilization overpowered. This thread is (now) about alternatives to the current nerf to Uhlan hitpoints.

[zoom]

Just revert all german changes (except for lipizzaner buff, that is essential for team games) and give them 250w TP's in age 1.

Decreasing Trading Post xp income seems like a better idea.

[dansil92]

Wait wait wait i got it... 181 hp uhlans

[Darwin_]

Just revert all german changes (except for lipizzaner buff, that is essential for team games) and give them 250w TP's in age 1.

Decreasing Trading Post xp income seems like a better idea.

Bah this is silly. If we just got rid of mf-ing random crates so many of these stupid balance debates just wouldn't need to be had.

[zoom]

I just dont get why we dont do the change that 90 percent of people who play on ep think is a good idea, instead of doing the things that people who dont play the game think is a good idea.

Because it isn't a good idea, despite some people thinking that it is, and claiming, delusionally, that everyone agrees with them—unless you think that Germans being the undisputed top civilization and hurting the design and identity of the civilization is desireable, in which case it's a great idea!

In light of some misguided comments ITT (and elsewhere), it should also be noted that the poll regards satisfaction with the Uhlan hitpoints nerf; not its replacement with every given voter's personal preference, which I'm sure you'll understand were impossible. Somehow, there seems to be a lot of confusion between the two, though.

[zoom]

Just revert all german changes (except for lipizzaner buff, that is essential for team games) and give them 250w TP's in age 1.

Decreasing Trading Post xp income seems like a better idea.

Bah this is silly. If we just got rid of mf-ing random crates so many of these stupid balance debates just wouldn't need to be had.

The option that isn't intrusive and that only affects TP maps is silly, but the option that is intrusive and affects 0TP maps too isn't?

[zoom]

I feel like this change was essentially made to change the number of huss hits it takes to kill, which feels pretty euro-centric. The only other units off the top of my head that 10 hp discrepancy really makes much difference against is Pumas, which take 3 hits on ep instead of 4; sepoy which take 4 melee swings instead of 5- HOWEVER since you essentially always get a ranged shot off, its basically always 4 swings on RE too.
All it does is reduce the unit's viability vs skirm masses while (apart from huss and puma) doing very little at affecting its performance against almost all other units.

I am in favour of reducing the skirm shipments by either a single skirm or a single uhlan and reverting the hp, which in addition to the small jaeger nerf, should bring Germany into a nice place.

Your feeling would be wrong, then. That is one of the more directly noticeable effects, without any doubt, but the change affects a large number of breakpoints for hand and ranged attacks, I recall investigating, at the time.

As has been indicated, previously, on top of help negating the civilization's design and identity, your suggestion would leave Germans as the strongest civilization in the game, by a wide margin.

[zoom]

Other changes are just so bad and ugly though

If you really want to make them better in age 2 without affecting age 3 as much just buff cav hp to 20%. That way it helps if you play Colo but not Fortress until later.

Really though Germans are balanced right now.

To be frank, I think this is the best possible change.

Take the Age 2 card, make it 20% HP, maybe even 25% HP. If you want to buff colonial too, change the card slightly so that it even gives 3 Uhlans instead of 2.

Now Uhlans become a unit that are no longer underwhelming, as long as you upgrade them properly. And it costs you a shipment to do so. In the end, you come back to having Uhlans with a proper amount of HP, but you don't get it for free. It's kind of like how Asian units (Sowars, Yumi, Ashi) only become really good units once you've sent all the upgrades. This does change standard builds and meta, but, who cares if you balance the game properly, we shouldn't be using 2015 strategies anymore.

Especially since Germans are supposedly balanced right now, they're just weird since their Uhlans aren't as good as before and WW are just the strangest unit in the game.

And yes, I am PR22. I'm sure I might be missing some other consideration, so this is just a suggestion. But a good one, I feel.

I doubt that having the option to spend a shipment about ten minutes into Colonial Age would satisfy the vast majority of players who dislike the current change. Otherwise, it's an interesting option.

[zoom]

here's my take (i know that noone cares):
1) remove 1 uhlan from all shipments except mercenaries and 5 uhlan and 8 uhlan (these are all good already (i am fine with having two 8 uhlan shipments out there))
2) revert the xp requirements for shipments to around 6...10%
and two...three of the following:
3) boost colonial cav hp card to give 5% more hp to uhlan
4) boost fortress cav combat card to 5% more hp to uhlan
5) boost veteran uhlan upgrade to give 5% more hp to uhlan
6) add 5% hp upgrade to the 9 uhlan shipment (now nerfed to 8 uhlan)

just for reference i am in the camp that is against nerfing the 3sw card

I definitely care about your opinion, I just think that the above would be a lot of messy changes, on top of adversely affecting the identity of the civilization.

[Aizamk]

Proposal: revert uhlan hitpoints to 190, revert or partially revert xp nerf. However, increase shipment sending times by 10%, making the progression slower anyway but not penalizing number of shipments especially on non tp maps. Incidentally might also be worth considering the opposite for Spain, ie decrease shipment sending times

[Mitoe]

10% is probably not enough slower to justify reverting both nerfs. Could possibly consider going back to 185hp (Ger was still good) and reverting xp, and then change the shipments to 50 second arrival time instead of 40. Possibly 65 or 70 for the merc shipments as well.