The understated case for Zoi

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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by princeofkabul »

top players running EP didn't work, too much ego and biased players. also the inter forum was like a kindergarden.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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Post by gibson »

I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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Post by BrookG »

Dim1000 wrote:Despite not playing this game anymore, I always tune in to streams when possible and follow the forum a bit.
Pretty ridiculous that one person acts like a control freak and makes patch decisions on his own. It's not like he owns the game or esoc patch was his brain child. Success of all these tournaments are because ultimately viewers like the top players competing and they make generous donations to keep the show running. All it takes is a consensus among top players to boycott one tournament on the patch and that would end the dictatorship
EP design is handled from a different party than tournaments, so pressure would aim the wrong people. Nevertheless, I trust we are sensible people capable of solving our issues with discussion rather than resorting to threats.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by princeofcarthage »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:EP is not just about balancing the game. At least, it think it isn't anymore, if it ever was. So, while i agree that top players should be entitled to speak for balance matters and that the ultimate balance related decisions should be up to them, i don't think it should be the same as far as design goes. After all the game is everyone's game. It is true that top players might have more insight than the average player on what design aspects make a game great, but this matter is surely not as exclusive as balance understanding.

Balance -> Aristocracy
Design -> Democracy
As far as I can see this looks more like a monarchy.
No one said this would be a democracy though nor you are entitled to one.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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Post by princeofcarthage »

gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
You could always recall Vane
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by gamevideo113 »

Many people here have been accusing zoi of calling all the shots on his own, completely disregarding everybody else's opinion. That could not be further away from the truth. All the discussion that Zoi usually has with a lot of players for every single change is going under the radar.
While it might be true that some changes make it into the draft just because they are something that Zoi wants to try, and they aren't necessarily good changes (see the xbow 60% hp buff), it doesn't mean that everything else comes from Zoi alone as well.
Maybe that's just a way to propose a change to the whole community, and not just to the 20-30 people he usually discusses the changes with.
The thing that needs to be understood is that Zoi is a very rational person, and he usually listens to solid reasoning more than anything else. "I don't like uhlans with 185 hp" is an argument that won't make him change his mind, unless the majority of the community brings it up. On the other hand, a solid rational well articulated argument coming from one person might be enough to convince him to discard a change and think of something else.
Yes, he is slow. We all know that. But since Zoi has proven that he can be a good EP leader, I'd rather grow some more patience than dismiss Zoi's work.
On the other hand, he should make an effort in being more active in the forums. In my opinion, he should also compromise a bit more between trying to reach the viability of everything and the tradition that comes from RE and the original AoE3.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
Top players running it worked well in the past, not sure why you think it is a terrible idea.
Top players runing it is actually the best way to reach a good balance (not sure you can deny that), and top players would only make the necessary design changes (like remove age 1 laming or stupid mechanics like cease fire).
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by princeofcarthage »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
Top players running it worked well in the past, not sure why you think it is a terrible idea.
Top players runing it is actually the best way to reach a good balance (not sure you can deny that), and top players would only make the necessary design changes (like remove age 1 laming or stupid mechanics like cease fire).
top players running EP didn't work, too much ego and biased players. also the inter forum was like a kindergarden.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
Top players running it worked well in the past, not sure why you think it is a terrible idea.
Top players runing it is actually the best way to reach a good balance (not sure you can deny that), and top players would only make the necessary design changes (like remove age 1 laming or stupid mechanics like cease fire).
Nah, the old internal EP discussion forum was a mess.

The community has matured a lot since then, but I don't think a private forum with 20-30 players would be more productive or beneficial.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
Top players running it worked well in the past, not sure why you think it is a terrible idea.
Top players runing it is actually the best way to reach a good balance (not sure you can deny that), and top players would only make the necessary design changes (like remove age 1 laming or stupid mechanics like cease fire).
Nah, the old internal EP discussion forum was a mess.

The community has matured a lot since then, but I don't think a private forum with 20-30 players would be more productive or beneficial.
It became a mess later but it was productive during the first versions of EP.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by Qosashvili93 »

Were not top players decision to make i dians house 60 wood or dutchs bank 300 food and such decisions until ep6?
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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Mitoe wrote: The community has matured a lot since then, but I don't think a private forum with 20-30 players would be more productive or beneficial.
That's why we talk about 4-5 persons? And not necessary 5 top player.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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Post by lordraphael »

zoi > all. im serious
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Qosashvili93 wrote:Were not top players decision to make i dians house 60 wood or dutchs bank 300 food and such decisions until ep6?
60w India house was Zoi and GS, not top players if I remember correctly.
The 300f bank was suggested by top players, not sure what's wrong with that change. We eventually figured out that Dutch didn't need that but it wasn't really an awkward change (less so than 6 banks in colonial for sure) and it was a smart way to balance Dutch.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by Mitoe »

I still think cheaper banks would be good if the bank limit was reverted to 4 but it doesn't matter anymore.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
Top players running it worked well in the past, not sure why you think it is a terrible idea.
Top players runing it is actually the best way to reach a good balance (not sure you can deny that), and top players would only make the necessary design changes (like remove age 1 laming or stupid mechanics like cease fire).
The obvious inability to look at the game objectively
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Mitoe wrote:I still think cheaper banks would be good if the bank limit was reverted to 4 but it doesn't matter anymore.
I thought the same but honestly with the current state of Dutch thats just not a viable opinion. Dutch is like the most balanced civ right now.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gibson wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:I mean what options are there besides zoi? Top players running it is obviously a terrible idea.
Top players running it worked well in the past, not sure why you think it is a terrible idea.
Top players runing it is actually the best way to reach a good balance (not sure you can deny that), and top players would only make the necessary design changes (like remove age 1 laming or stupid mechanics like cease fire).
The obvious inability to look at the game objectively
We all have our bias, and as I explained previously, Zoi is extremely biased toward his vision of the game.
To fix this issue, I suggested to make a small team of top players, that would remove the bias.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by gamevideo113 »

Dutch might be well balanced but the design of the civ kinda leaves a lot to be desired... Not saying current dutch should be changed, just that the civ seems a bit stale to me.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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gamevideo113 wrote:Dutch might be well balanced but the design of the civ kinda leaves a lot to be desired... Not saying current dutch should be changed, just that the civ seems a bit stale to me.
If they change the design of Dutch I'll be so fucking pissed. You can just play a different civ you know, you don't have to take away things from others because you can't enjoy a civ (or can't enjoy the game, zoi).
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by iNcog »

Zoi keeps project lead because he's a good fit for it. Zoi implements more changes that are vetted through top players. Zoi reduces number of changes and weeds out the stranger ones (Mahout, etc.)
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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iNcog wrote:Zoi keeps project lead because he's a good fit for it. Zoi implements more changes that are vetted through top players. Zoi reduces number of changes and weeds out the stranger ones (Mahout, etc.)
Zoi also came up with all the bullshit changes? How can you praise someone for making a 100 mistakes and fixing like 90 of them. That means he still made 10 mistakes.

and that's the patch philosophy in a nutshell. Push 100 stupid changes. Be very adamant about all of them. Have a lot of backlash. Fix 90 of them. Congrats, you made 10 ridiculous changes. Repeat this for a few patches and you've ruined what was once a good balance patch.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

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RefluxSemantic wrote:Zoi also came up with all the bullshit changes? How can you praise someone for making a 100 mistakes and fixing like 90 of them. That means he still made 10 mistakes.

and that's the patch philosophy in a nutshell. Push 100 stupid changes. Be very adamant about all of them. Have a lot of backlash. Fix 90 of them. Congrats, you made 10 ridiculous changes. Repeat this for a few patches and you've ruined what was once a good balance patch.
You're forgetting about the good changes though. Let's not exaggerate.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Zoi also came up with all the bullshit changes? How can you praise someone for making a 100 mistakes and fixing like 90 of them. That means he still made 10 mistakes.

and that's the patch philosophy in a nutshell. Push 100 stupid changes. Be very adamant about all of them. Have a lot of backlash. Fix 90 of them. Congrats, you made 10 ridiculous changes. Repeat this for a few patches and you've ruined what was once a good balance patch.
You're forgetting about the good changes though. Let's not exaggerate.
Of course but with a better EP process, we would only have these good changes. And people wouldn't have to waste hours discussing 100 random changes.
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Re: The understated case for Zoi

Post by Goodspeed »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Zoi also came up with all the bullshit changes? How can you praise someone for making a 100 mistakes and fixing like 90 of them. That means he still made 10 mistakes.

and that's the patch philosophy in a nutshell. Push 100 stupid changes. Be very adamant about all of them. Have a lot of backlash. Fix 90 of them. Congrats, you made 10 ridiculous changes. Repeat this for a few patches and you've ruined what was once a good balance patch.
You're forgetting about the good changes though. Let's not exaggerate.
Of course but with a better EP process, we would only have these good changes.
No you wouldn't. We had pretty much exactly the process you're talking about with ASFP and still made many bad changes. And again, that was without all the bad blood between players that we have here.

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