Potential EP Sioux Update

[RefluxSemantic]

Its still slightly ugly. Its prettier when you can balance a civ by just changing stats, crate starts or shipments.

[EAGLEMUT]

I want to ask Eaglemut whether it were technically possible to implement the following, so I might as well do it here:

– "Great Hunter" now increases deliveries of bison shipments by X% or X units"

It is possible for the shipment to increase deliveries of bison shipments by X units, though the logic would technically be done on each bison shipment. This also means that each bison shipment can be set to deliver a different number of extra bisons, effectively increasing deliveries by a percentage, if desired. Note that, in any case, the bison count displayed on card icon cannot dynamically change, so it would show (arguably) incorrect numbers after activating this effect.

– Teepees now lose 5hp per second, self-destructing when reaching 0hp

Not possible; units cannot naturally die from hp degeneration.

Why not add a tactical nuke for 3k gold?

Depending on the definition of "tactical nuke", this should be possible as a targeted area-of-effect power.

[iNcog]

I would go with 450w. 400w is super cheap.

[dansil92]

One specific thing I'd thought of for sioux would be an age IV farm card something like "3 Sisters" (a farming technique developed and widely used by the Sioux people) for like 30-40% to farms. It wouldn't be super relevant most games but would at least give them a lategame way to get some vestige of food eco after hunts are gone

[gamevideo113]

One specific thing I'd thought of for sioux would be an age IV farm card something like "3 Sisters" (a farming technique developed and widely used by the Sioux people) for like 30-40% to farms. It wouldn't be super relevant most games but would at least give them a lategame way to get some vestige of food eco after hunts are gone

Yeah, Sioux really need a boost to their lategame gathering. Either another farm upgrade card, or an infinite bison shipment in IV, which imo would be worth sending, even multiple times, because by the time you enter the lategame you'll have a lot of upgrades on your hunters:

Sioux Hunting Upgrades

-Hunting Dogs: Huntable +10%
-Great Feast: Hunting +10%
-Harvest Ceremony: Hunting +15%
-Green Corn Ceremony: Hunting +20%
-Great Hunter: Hunting +25%
-The Wise Woman (for Age IV): Villagers gather from huntable animals 30% faster
Total: +110%

I can also see that Age4 is rarely reached in 1v1 so an Age4 change would probably have no impact in the current competitive scene, but i believe that the civ still needs a lategame overhaul.
I think it could even be made the argument that the civ losing scaling in late fortress is physiological, and doesn't need to be adressed specifically (by the way - there are also cards for that, like Mustangs and Adoption). It makes sense for native civs to be interested in aging anyway because they have significantly cheaper upgrades, and get a better power spike out of the age up compared to euro.

[dansil92]

What is so strange about Sioux is just how many late game techs they have. Horsemanship, gun trade, bonepipe armour, etc. But then have literally 0 reason to go that late in the game and no eco techs to allow them to even use their potential. Really disappointing tbh

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah please let's stop wasting time and energy and focus on actual stuff.
So how about reverting the weird 30% rr on warchief

It's only happening if we replace it and the heavy cavalry tag with snare removal, which seems undesirable. Players were pretty clear about 10% resistance and the heavy cavalry tag being far too much.

We're not removing the snare, and we're not keeping 30% rr, unless we want a stupid warchief.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah please let's stop wasting time and energy and focus on actual stuff.
So how about reverting the weird 30% rr on warchief

It's only happening if we replace it and the heavy cavalry tag with snare removal, which seems undesirable. Players were pretty clear about 10% resistance and the heavy cavalry tag being far too much.

We're not removing the snare, and we're not keeping 30% rr, unless we want a stupid warchief.

Wtf ? We're asknig for a 30% RR revert and the "only" option is to remove snare ?
EP logic ????

[zoom]

Oof not gonna lie those are ugly changes

Great Hunter increasing bison shipment power is ugly to you? Yikes! I don't mind simply tuning it to 30%, which I also suggested to Mitoe. Other than that, in terms of effect, it's the best option that I've seen. I strongly dislike any change that would make bison shipments less viable.

[zoom]

One specific thing I'd thought of for sioux would be an age IV farm card something like "3 Sisters" (a farming technique developed and widely used by the Sioux people) for like 30-40% to farms. It wouldn't be super relevant most games but would at least give them a lategame way to get some vestige of food eco after hunts are gone

Yeah, Sioux really need a boost to their lategame gathering. Either another farm upgrade card, or an infinite bison shipment in IV, which imo would be worth sending, even multiple times, because by the time you enter the lategame you'll have a lot of upgrades on your hunters:

Sioux Hunting Upgrades

-Hunting Dogs: Huntable +10%
-Great Feast: Hunting +10%
-Harvest Ceremony: Hunting +15%
-Green Corn Ceremony: Hunting +20%
-Great Hunter: Hunting +25%
-The Wise Woman (for Age IV): Villagers gather from huntable animals 30% faster
Total: +110%

I can also see that Age4 is rarely reached in 1v1 so an Age4 change would probably have no impact in the current competitive scene, but i believe that the civ still needs a lategame overhaul.
I think it could even be made the argument that the civ losing scaling in late fortress is physiological, and doesn't need to be adressed specifically (by the way - there are also cards for that, like Mustangs and Adoption). It makes sense for native civs to be interested in aging anyway because they have significantly cheaper upgrades, and get a better power spike out of the age up compared to euro.

Don't worry. I will be testing transfering the gather-aura to one of the Teepee upgrade shipments, whenever this revamp happens.

[Hazza54321]

One specific thing I'd thought of for sioux would be an age IV farm card something like "3 Sisters" (a farming technique developed and widely used by the Sioux people) for like 30-40% to farms. It wouldn't be super relevant most games but would at least give them a lategame way to get some vestige of food eco after hunts are gone

Yeah, Sioux really need a boost to their lategame gathering. Either another farm upgrade card, or an infinite bison shipment in IV, which imo would be worth sending, even multiple times, because by the time you enter the lategame you'll have a lot of upgrades on your hunters:

Sioux Hunting Upgrades

-Hunting Dogs: Huntable +10%
-Great Feast: Hunting +10%
-Harvest Ceremony: Hunting +15%
-Green Corn Ceremony: Hunting +20%
-Great Hunter: Hunting +25%
-The Wise Woman (for Age IV): Villagers gather from huntable animals 30% faster
Total: +110%

I can also see that Age4 is rarely reached in 1v1 so an Age4 change would probably have no impact in the current competitive scene, but i believe that the civ still needs a lategame overhaul.
I think it could even be made the argument that the civ losing scaling in late fortress is physiological, and doesn't need to be adressed specifically (by the way - there are also cards for that, like Mustangs and Adoption). It makes sense for native civs to be interested in aging anyway because they have significantly cheaper upgrades, and get a better power spike out of the age up compared to euro.

DW. I will be transfering the gather-aura to one of the Teepee upgrade shipments, whenever this revamp happens.

please dont

[zoom]

I actually liked that. Teepees feeling more like a core feature of the civ doesn't seem like bad design in itself at all, that actually feels like what they always should've been. You don't see players complain that building houses every game is a no-brainer with other civilizations. Teepees can be the equivalent of that, for Sioux. Besides, the real decision-making is in where you're going to build them and whether you're going to delete them to move somewhere else.
That said, eco aura is obviously not the only way of achieving viable teepees. I just wanted to underline that the viability of teepees is something I enjoyed, and I hope these changes don't result in taking them out of the game again.

Yeah I can respect that, it just seems like the gather rate aura wasn't working overall and always had to receive more and more changes every single patch. The cost decrease hopefully will keep them relevant.

Presumably so – until EP7, where it most likely would now only take tweaking the numbers as planned, to make the civilization a little stronger and a little less unbreakable, overall.

As far as I can tell, the (logical) problem was never that you would be building Teepees every game; it's that the feature was so poorly implemented, that it meant that every game you would build as many Teepees as you possibly could, like a tumor attached to your starting Town Center, and spawn-camp until your broken "Broken Arrow" Dog Soldier big-button came in at 14 minutes. There was consideration neither as to how many you would build, nor where you would build them. Whether you like it is a separate issue, but logically it's not any different from building houses, other than being unique to the civilization, is it?

If I weren't such a slow thinker, we could have had this version a long time ago.

Fuck me; it's "Black Arrow", isn't it?
: (

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

One specific thing I'd thought of for sioux would be an age IV farm card something like "3 Sisters" (a farming technique developed and widely used by the Sioux people) for like 30-40% to farms. It wouldn't be super relevant most games but would at least give them a lategame way to get some vestige of food eco after hunts are gone

Yeah, Sioux really need a boost to their lategame gathering. Either another farm upgrade card, or an infinite bison shipment in IV, which imo would be worth sending, even multiple times, because by the time you enter the lategame you'll have a lot of upgrades on your hunters:

Sioux Hunting Upgrades

-Hunting Dogs: Huntable +10%
-Great Feast: Hunting +10%
-Harvest Ceremony: Hunting +15%
-Green Corn Ceremony: Hunting +20%
-Great Hunter: Hunting +25%
-The Wise Woman (for Age IV): Villagers gather from huntable animals 30% faster
Total: +110%

I can also see that Age4 is rarely reached in 1v1 so an Age4 change would probably have no impact in the current competitive scene, but i believe that the civ still needs a lategame overhaul.
I think it could even be made the argument that the civ losing scaling in late fortress is physiological, and doesn't need to be adressed specifically (by the way - there are also cards for that, like Mustangs and Adoption). It makes sense for native civs to be interested in aging anyway because they have significantly cheaper upgrades, and get a better power spike out of the age up compared to euro.

DW. I will be transfering the gather-aura to one of the Teepee upgrade shipments, whenever this revamp happens.

please dont

It strikes me as a good compromise, to satisfy the players who like the aura (which I have found comprise a significant category), and does something to help later scaling, which the civilization seems to sorely need. Over the years, I've seen lots of people suggesting doing exactly that, too. Testing it, then polling it, seems like a reasonable thing to do. What's so bad about that plan?

[dansil92]

5v
wakina 18 range -> 20 range
rifle rider gets 20rr instead of melee resist

this is my whole list of things i would change to ep7 sioux

[chronique]

rifle rider gets 20rr instead of melee resist

No, RR need to be widely countered by skirm, this unit is a f**** gateling lol.

[dansil92]

rifle rider gets 20rr instead of melee resist

No, RR need to be widely countered by skirm, this unit is a f**** gateling lol.

It's 220 res unit and gets one shotted by like 10 skirms it's bloody useless right now

[Kaiserklein]

No it's not useless, whenever it's vs musk/huss kind of stuff it's quite an OP unit. Just a terrible unit when goons are involved basically. If they have RI / HI / cav, you can go pure axe + rr and it's essentially not counterable.
Doesn't need 20% rr, also I think it's cheaper on EP already.

Also giving wakinas 20 range would probably make them OP. Right now the unit is strong already because it has an insane attack for its cost, but its lower range means you can't really go for skirm wars. You need some axe in front basically, and then your wakinas just deal a ton of damage. I don't think we want to change that.

[chronique]

It's 220 res unit and gets one shotted by like 10 skirms it's bloody useless right now

If iam not wrong this unit cost 120f 90g now, and like kaiser said, ask otto/spain player if rr are usless ^^.

[Astaroth]

Lol imagine Otto vs Sioux with Rifle riders having 20 % rr.

[Hazza54321]

I want to ask Eaglemut whether it were technically possible to implement the following, so I might as well do it here:

– "Great Hunter" now increases deliveries of bison shipments by X% or X units"
– Teepees now lose 5hp per second, self-destructing when reaching 0hp

Why not add a tactical nuke for 3k gold?

They already have one for 1.5k food

[Aykin Haraka]

still arguing about futures shit changes to apply to a shit game
xd

[EAGLEMUT]

still banned for cheating
xd

[Garja]

blasted