Potential EP Sioux Update

[RefluxSemantic]

Can't the bow rider nerf be reverted partially? They might have been too strong on RE, but I think it fits the civ to have pretty strong mobile units.

They're still super strong on EP. We've seen the full cav sioux playstyle with a couple cav cards still be viable on EP, sometimes too strong even. I think BRs shouldn't be touched now.

They're apperantly not strong enough for the civ to be viable without other changes. If we need either weird or standardizing changes to make sioux a reasonable civ, then why can't we test partial revert of the nerf first?

[[Armag] diarouga]

I understand your idea Jerom, but I'm not sure buffing brs would change the Sioux playstyle.
People would still go for brs semi and lose eventually because they don't have the dog soldier timing.

[EAGLEMUT]

- building a TC spawns a single teepee wagon, effectively giving you some of your wood back (goes along with the not getting 10 pop idea)

Don't like it because you can already be at max limit which is awkward.

- building teepee spawns a bison (though would reduce it's viability as an aggressive tool, so maybe not ideal)
- shipment that spawns a bison at every teepee

Don't like it because it would be super awkward when placing teepees aggressively, as you say.

I found more interesting the options to make teepees pass-through for Sioux units as Mitoe mentioned elsewhere, or making it possible to transform teepees into mobile teepee wagons to move them around, as suggested in early EP days.

[Kaiserklein]

They're apperantly not strong enough for the civ to be viable without other changes. If we need either weird or standardizing changes to make sioux a reasonable civ, then why can't we test partial revert of the nerf first?

Well RE sioux would be too weak on EP maps. So with nerfed BRs, obviously RE sioux would be even weaker on these maps. So it just makes sense to give other buffs instead. Even with a partial revert, or a full revert, sioux would just not be competitive.
As usual, if you want a healthy balance, you can't make civs rely on their broken features. This would be like saying "ports are too weak on land, we need to give them 5 mams and 20 range goons back" or "india is too weak, we need 190 hp sepoys and 10% hp british consulate back" (spoilers, I don't think ports nor india are too weak, these are just examples). No, that just makes the civs rely purely on that broken stuff. It's not interesting and it usually achieves poor balance anyway (e.g india smashes brits because brits can't beat broken musks, while civs with CIR / strong skirms do alright ; same with strong goons vs sioux).

[RefluxSemantic]

What's broken about EP bow riders? What is 'broken' even supposed to be?

[Kaiserklein]

What are you talking about? I said reverting the BR nerf would make them broken again
And by broken in this case, you can interpret it as, it breaks the unit counter system

[RefluxSemantic]

I don't think Bow Riders actually 'break' the unit counter system though. Don't they still lose cost effectively versus skirms?

Also, sorry for going into semantics but I consider the 'broken' argument inherently semantical. It's a very empty term too, thrown at anything people dislike.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't think Bow Riders actually 'break' the unit counter system though. Don't they still lose cost effectively versus skirms?

RE brs barely lose against skirmishers yea (while skirmishers are the only counter to brs). And with the WC and dogsoldiers tanking they definitely don't.
They beat musks cost effectively also...

[RefluxSemantic]

I don't think Bow Riders actually 'break' the unit counter system though. Don't they still lose cost effectively versus skirms?

RE brs barely lose against skirmishers yea. And with the WC and dogsoldiers tanking they definitely don't.

So what is 'broken' about them then?

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't think Bow Riders actually 'break' the unit counter system though. Don't they still lose cost effectively versus skirms?

RE brs barely lose against skirmishers yea. And with the WC and dogsoldiers tanking they definitely don't.

So what is 'broken' about them then?

What's broken is that they break the counter system on the RE, as kaiser said.

They're insanely good at what they're supposed to do (ie kill cav, thanks to their stats and the 30% RR), better than the other ranged cav (CA, goons, ruyts and even eagle), they trade evenly with heavy infantry (while HI is supposed to counter ranged cav), and barely lose to skirms (they have more dps actually, so if you have some cav to tank they're better than skirms).

[Kaiserklein]

They do break the counter system on RE.

And generally speaking, to me, broken means that regardless of how strong a thing is, it's inherently imbalanced. As in, for instance, way too strong in some situations and too weak in some others. E.g rifle riders are a good example of a broken unit, it can be stupidly strong and make some mus basically impossible (ottos) or completely useless. Same goes with broken 20 range jinetes, they're not necessarily "too strong" in 1v1 because you probably shouldn't reach the point where you can go for them, but if you do reach that point they're extremely dumb.
I guess another way to see it could be that in some situations there's literally no counterplay to that broken thing (while again, in some others it might be useless).

RE BRs as a whole (with their speed, no multiplier vs vils, being a goon unit trainable in age 2, heavily upgradable, and insane base stats) are both broken and OP I guess.

[RefluxSemantic]

How about rifle riders then? They counter HI, but wasn't HI supposed to counter cav. Do you also have a problem with Lancers doing okay against HI? Don't these units also break the counter systems. Don't musketeers in age 2 do too well against xbows? Doesn't that mean they break the counter system? How about lategame yumi versus cav, don't they break the counter system? Also on what basis should HI beat ranged cav? Where is that written down? In my book they're both anti cav. How is this a rule?

And on top of that, against Bow Riders you want to make skirms and not cav. How does that break the counter system? You would still try to counter them with the unit that is good against them, wouldn't you?

And then on top of that, you guys are assuming that something being 'broken' (as arbitrary as this term is) actually makes the game unfun. There's no reason to even assume this is true, especially with the arbitrary definition we're using for broken. I'm pretty sure with this level of mental gymnastics I can label just about any system in the game to be broken.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Rifle rider is a special unit, which has its own counter system. It does beat HI, but it loses super hard against skirm, and it loses to goons.
Lancer is a also a special unit. It beats HI, but it dies hard to goons, and loses to cav.
Brs just have no good counter, that's why they're broken.

Your 2nd argument broken stuff not making the game unfun is more relevant, and I have no good answer to this but to say that the community (of top players at least) doesn't want a civ to train 1-2 units instead of 2-3 units.

[RefluxSemantic]

Also, we're now looking at the unit in a vacuum. But the unit doesn't exist in a vacuum. It used to exist as a unit of the civ sioux, which has a notoriously weak eco. Even if they are too cost effective (making them 'broken'), Sioux should get outmassed. On top of that, you still counter them with the units that are supposed to counter them. Even though these units might not be as cost effective against bow riders as is required to get the holy seal of not being broken, you're going to be outmassed. So it's not even a realistic argument to consider because it isn't a reasonable scenario.

[RefluxSemantic]

Rifle rider is a special unit, which has its own counter system. It does beat HI, but it loses super hard against skirm, and it loses to goons.
Lancer is a also a special unit. It beats HI, but it dies hard to goons, and loses to cav.
Brs just have no good counter, that's why they're broken.

Your 2nd argument broken stuff not making the game unfun is more relevant, and I have no good answer to this but to say that the community (of top players at least) doesn't want a civ to train 1-2 units instead of 2-3 units.

Why are rifle riders special units, but bow riders not? What determines this?

[chronique]

BR have mr and no rr, they are not rly cost efficient vs mousket (without micro) and win vs age 2 skirm (5 br win vs 8 age 2 skirm but 5 br loose vs 9 mousket). Just for info

[[Armag] diarouga]

Rifle rider is a special unit, which has its own counter system. It does beat HI, but it loses super hard against skirm, and it loses to goons.
Lancer is a also a special unit. It beats HI, but it dies hard to goons, and loses to cav.
Brs just have no good counter, that's why they're broken.

Your 2nd argument broken stuff not making the game unfun is more relevant, and I have no good answer to this but to say that the community (of top players at least) doesn't want a civ to train 1-2 units instead of 2-3 units.

Why are rifle riders special units, but bow riders not? What determines this?

Because rifle riders are obvious special. They counter 1 more unit but they lose even harder to their counter and they lose to ranged cav.
Bow riders aren't special, they're just goons/CA, except they're better than goons/CA in every situation. They're better against their counter, better against the unit they're supposed to counter, and better in a mirror situation.

[[Armag] diarouga]

BR have mr and no rr, they are not rly cost efficient vs mousket (without micro) and win vs age 2 skirm (5 br win vs 8 age 2 skirm but 5 br loose vs 9 mousket). Just for info

Yea, but you can micro.

[RefluxSemantic]

Rifle rider is a special unit, which has its own counter system. It does beat HI, but it loses super hard against skirm, and it loses to goons.
Lancer is a also a special unit. It beats HI, but it dies hard to goons, and loses to cav.
Brs just have no good counter, that's why they're broken.

Your 2nd argument broken stuff not making the game unfun is more relevant, and I have no good answer to this but to say that the community (of top players at least) doesn't want a civ to train 1-2 units instead of 2-3 units.

Why are rifle riders special units, but bow riders not? What determines this?

Because rifle riders are obvious special. They counter 1 more unit but they lose even harder to their counter and they lose to ranged cav.
Bow riders aren't special, they're just goons/CA, except they're better than goons/CA in every situation. They're better against their counter, better against the unit they're supposed to counter, and better in a mirror situation.

What is the definition of a special unit?

Again, I'm sorry for going into semantics. But when the case against bow riders is pure semantics, expect me to counter that with semantics.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

Rifle rider is a special unit, which has its own counter system. It does beat HI, but it loses super hard against skirm, and it loses to goons.
Lancer is a also a special unit. It beats HI, but it dies hard to goons, and loses to cav.
Brs just have no good counter, that's why they're broken.

Your 2nd argument broken stuff not making the game unfun is more relevant, and I have no good answer to this but to say that the community (of top players at least) doesn't want a civ to train 1-2 units instead of 2-3 units.

Why are rifle riders special units, but bow riders not? What determines this?

Because rifle riders are obvious special. They counter 1 more unit but they lose even harder to their counter and they lose to ranged cav.
Bow riders aren't special, they're just goons/CA, except they're better than goons/CA in every situation. They're better against their counter, better against the unit they're supposed to counter, and better in a mirror situation.

What is the definition of a special unit?

Again, I'm sorry for going into semantics. But when the case against bow riders is pure semantics, expect me to counter that with semantics.

The case against bow riders isn't just semantics.
It's just that the unit breaks the counter system and is much better than goons at everything.
I honestly don't care about semantics but a special unit is a unit which has its own balanced counter system. The brs counter system is simply not balanced.

[chronique]

BR is broken because they excel in what they suppose to do, and they are quite decent vs unit who are suppose to counter them. And they have no negative * vs vili

[gamevideo113]

Rifle riders have a unique unit tag combination. That's why it's a special unit.

[RefluxSemantic]

Rifle riders have a unique unit tag combination. That's why it's a special unit.

Lancers don't though. Nor do Yumi.

[RefluxSemantic]

Show hidden quotes

Rifle rider is a special unit, which has its own counter system. It does beat HI, but it loses super hard against skirm, and it loses to goons.
Lancer is a also a special unit. It beats HI, but it dies hard to goons, and loses to cav.
Brs just have no good counter, that's why they're broken.

Your 2nd argument broken stuff not making the game unfun is more relevant, and I have no good answer to this but to say that the community (of top players at least) doesn't want a civ to train 1-2 units instead of 2-3 units.

Why are rifle riders special units, but bow riders not? What determines this?

Because rifle riders are obvious special. They counter 1 more unit but they lose even harder to their counter and they lose to ranged cav.
Bow riders aren't special, they're just goons/CA, except they're better than goons/CA in every situation. They're better against their counter, better against the unit they're supposed to counter, and better in a mirror situation.

What is the definition of a special unit?

Again, I'm sorry for going into semantics. But when the case against bow riders is pure semantics, expect me to counter that with semantics.

The case against bow riders isn't just semantics.
It's just that the unit breaks the counter system and is much better than goons at everything.
I honestly don't care about semantics but a special unit is a unit which has its own balanced counter system. The brs counter system is simply not balanced.

okay. So we're back at step 1. What is breaking the counter system?

I won't stop with this. I detest this reasoning. It's bad. If you want to discuss bow riders, do so without using this entirely empty term. Broken is just a buzzword that's being used for something people don't like so that they don't have to explain why they don't like it.

[gamevideo113]

Lancers have unique multipliers. Yumi aren't special counter-wise.