Garja patch

[Aykin Haraka]

well this looks way better than what we already have for sure
maybe need some changes but nothing big

[aqwer]

- “Dutch East India Company” shipment effect on bank cost increased to 30% (from 15%).

That is a nice change, its good that you have included it.

It's one of the QoL of the changes that can be scrapped if necessary. 15% is objectively underwhelming. 30% makes so that there is a considerable trade off between that card and sending crates (a bit like VC vs 700w 600w for brits).

Yeah , fair.
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=20084

[chronique]

Tit comes out of his cave

[Garja]

the dutch seems super strong in the garja patch

You think so? In practice they seem weaker than on current EP, with only 4 banks and 4 hussars rather than 5 hussars. It's mostly fine though.

I didn't tweak hussar card for two reasons:
- all euro civs have some trash fortress unit shipments (for example French have 10 pikes and 10xbows);
- with the halb buff Dutch has a unique melee option now.

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the dutch seems super strong in the garja patch

You think so? In practice they seem weaker than on current EP, with only 4 banks and 4 hussars rather than 5 hussars. It's mostly fine though.

I think it would be stronger in long enough games, but above all it would be stronger in team

Oh yeah for sure. In 1v1 I think this mostly makes them a bit weaker, doesn't it? 5th bank is sometimes really good, and I don't know if you're going to be shipping any of the bank boosts in most of the games.

Well, 4 banks is definetely weaker than the current EP 5 banks. But was 5 banks any necessary in the first place?
Bank boost cards are mostly for late team play and occasionally for when Dutch is stuck in colonial (e.g. when you don't take your chance aging vs Russia).

i honestly like this one alot haha, jap club range resist to 20% seems broken as fuck but other than that there arent too major big ones that can be very problematic.

thank you G

Yamabushi buff was to align with all the pikes and other hand infantry resistance buff. Also, with xbows being buffed and since most of the borderline OP units have been left untouched (or nerfed slightly) this helps in defending vs them and rushes in general.

[kevinitalien]

For Dutch initial bank pop is 4?

the dutch seems super strong in the garja patch, and I like azzy garja change

I've always been very voicy about 5 bank limit. I just think it's too much and it's quite evident by the income Dutch gets in mid game. I must admit that now I'm a bit less sure about that, mostly because of how people get used to the 5 bank limit. However, considering all the small nerfs other euro civs received I think it's fine to have them at 4.
Dutch is stronger military wise (pikeman buff helps a little vs Russia, halbardier buff is just a cool unique buff imo) but eco wise it remains the same as RE patch, except for late game where Dutch have always considered a bit underwhelming (despite having extra pop for military) due to banks not being as good as villagers.[/quote]
tbh, i agree with that

[TheNameDaniel]

So uhlan and sepoy hp are unchanged from RE?

[chronique]

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Aenna realy decerve this nerf? Never thought than eanna was so strong.

the warchief is not nerf

I prefere the wc nerf imo, this guy is a nightmare!

tbh not me, I prefer nerf unites iro than the wc, I like the idea that it is a nightmare, its demand more skill to keep a wc alive and use it well, of course at the start of the game it is super strong

I understand this point but i am scared by the fact than this bonus is more valuable age 3 and late age 2, where iro is still very strong. Also, removing the 100c from rdm crate is a buff.

[Guigs]

Nothing but a G patch

[Garja]

So uhlan and sepoy hp are unchanged from RE?

Yes, I tried to play around those nerf to accomodate to people complaints. And honestly with xbuff/lbows being legitimately buffed most of problems regarding sepoy (and jans and BRs) are solved.
It is a different chapter for Ulhans since most of ranged cav is being nerfed and admittedly Germans are still a bit too strong. However they could use some other nerf on their fortress shipment which I didn't insert as it is a controversial topic.

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Aenna realy decerve this nerf? Never thought than eanna was so strong.

the warchief is not nerf

I prefere the wc nerf imo, this guy is a nightmare!

tbh not me, I prefer nerf unites iro than the wc, I like the idea that it is a nightmare, its demand more skill to keep a wc alive and use it well, of course at the start of the game it is super strong

I understand this point but i am scared by the fact than this bonus is more valuable age 3 and late age 2, where iro is still very strong. Also, removing the 100c from rdm crate is a buff.

The alternative was to keep the current WC aura nerf. I'm mostly indifferent about the two, however the Aenna nerf is more specific and gives the chance to nerf the Musket Rider ranged reistance. I'd like not to nerf kanya or tomahawk state with all the competitor units being buffed (or left untouched e.g. sepoy, BR). Aenna nerf is namely because the unit is insanely good and because it is the only RI unit in colonial that survives 2 shots from a colonia militia TC.

As for iro being strong in fortress and colonial I think that's fair and deserved. Removing 100c (which btw is already the case on current EP) is a buff to all civs, not just iro.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

So uhlan and sepoy hp are unchanged from RE?

It is a different chapter for Ulhans since most of ranged cav is being nerfed and admittedly Germans are still a bit too strong. However they could use some other nerf on their fortress shipment which I didn't insert as it is a controversial topic.

A few weeks ago I proposed to keep Uhlan's base HP to RE 190 but to nerf their vet upgrade from +20% HP to +15% HP instead. This means Germany would be unchanged in colonial where their struggle and weaker in fortress where their shine. What do you think about it ?

[fei123456]

So uhlan and sepoy hp are unchanged from RE?

It is a different chapter for Ulhans since most of ranged cav is being nerfed and admittedly Germans are still a bit too strong. However they could use some other nerf on their fortress shipment which I didn't insert as it is a controversial topic.

A few weeks ago I proposed to keep Uhlan's base HP to RE 190 but to nerf their vet upgrade from +20% HP to +15% HP instead. This means Germany would be unchanged in colonial where their struggle and weaker in fortress where their shine. What do you think about it ?

It may helps with balance, but it looks too "strange", you know. Why do a unit age up with 15% upgrade, while all others have 20%/25%? You can't explain to a new AOE3 player.

[deleted_user0]

This is fucking great. This was much better the solution to sepoy problem. Also love how LB's could be now used in brit mirror much better.
This is really so much better patch than current EP.

Just very small details I'd change like clubs RR
Also, I wouldn't increase fish boat prices. Doesn't seem overviable at all even though I know you're not a big fan of water.

[gamevideo113]

8.5/10, would play
I think some changes are a no brainer like the crossbow buff, which make this patch superior to current EP under some aspects.
Some other parts aren't well refined imo, for example sioux could surely use some tweaking from this starting point.
Lastly, some small unit buffs which should be there have been left out, (for example samurai, which shares expensiveness with other jap unit but doesn't scale as well, or organ guns, which in context of other port buffs might be fine but they still aren't something to write home about).
Also, cease fire still somewhat abusable. The 15% speed reduction is nice imo.

[thomasgreen6]

This is unironically a better patch

Hum, it might have balance issues but regarding design it's better, I agree

i honestly like this one alot haha

Well this looks way better than what we already have for sure

This is really so much better patch than current EP

8.5/10, would play

This patch really hits the G spot

[Garja]

This is fucking great. This was much better the solution to sepoy problem. Also love how LB's could be now used in brit mirror much better.
This is really so much better patch than current EP.

Just very small details I'd change like clubs RR
Also, I wouldn't increase fish boat prices. Doesn't seem overviable at all even though I know you're not a big fan of water.

I'm actually a fan of building fish boats with non schooner civs. Just 70w seemed a bit unfar to me for the schooner civs and in general schooner card wasn't that good anymore (except in team games maybe) because for example Ports can send eco theory instead and it's probably better. I think a 80-40 situation is better than 70-40. I assume touching training time was unecessary. Also 80-60 for asian civs seems more consistent.

8.5/10, would play
I think some changes are a no brainer like the crossbow buff, which make this patch superior to current EP under some aspects.
Some other parts aren't well refined imo, for example sioux could surely use some tweaking from this starting point.
Lastly, some small unit buffs which should be there have been left out, (for example samurai, which shares expensiveness with other jap unit but doesn't scale as well, or organ guns, which in context of other port buffs might be fine but they still aren't something to write home about).
Also, cease fire still somewhat abusable. The 15% speed reduction is nice imo.

I didn't consider touching the samurai because the unit is mostly fine. I guess we could remove the penalty vs villagers (nonsense). As for Organs gun I find any buff redundant at this point with both cassadores and xbows being buffed (also two out of three infantry ups moved to colonial).
Cease fire is of course abusable, it is the nature of the ability which is broken in itself. Speed reduction is just an artificial change that I'm not even sure it helps against it. With urumi being nerfed I think cease fire will still be abusable but a bit less effective.

[chronique]

Aenna nerf is namely because the unit is insanely good and because it is the only RI unit in colonial that survives 2 shots from a colonia militia TC.

And cetan now because upg tc hit at 94.5.

As for iro being strong in fortress and colonial I think that's fair and deserved. Removing 100c (which btw is already the case on current EP) is a buff to all civs, not just iro.

What??? iro can't start with 100c???

[Garja]

Aenna nerf is namely because the unit is insanely good and because it is the only RI unit in colonial that survives 2 shots from a colonia militia TC.

And cetan now because upg tc hit at 94.5.

As for iro being strong in fortress and colonial I think that's fair and deserved. Removing 100c (which btw is already the case on current EP) is a buff to all civs, not just iro.

What??? iro can't start with 100c???

Ye Cetan hp buff can honestly be removed because of that and since BRs are barely touched. Also teepees are generally more viable than on RE so Sioux has extra defence vs rushes. I'd just keep the speed buff.
Iro and all other civs can already only start with 100c 100f. The 100c only crate was removed on EP and I took that change as I consider it beneficial to balance and not too extreme to design.

[duckzilla]

Something something, trainable Spahis, spanish tercio with ranged attack, something...

Looks good.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

wheres the bug fix which says elmeti's voice clips are now voiced by Garja?

[gamevideo113]

I didn't consider touching the samurai because the unit is mostly fine. I guess we could remove the penalty vs villagers (nonsense). As for Organs gun I find any buff redundant at this point with both cassadores and xbows being buffed (also two out of three infantry ups moved to colonial).
Cease fire is of course abusable, it is the nature of the ability which is broken in itself. Speed reduction is just an artificial change that I'm not even sure it helps against it. With urumi being nerfed I think cease fire will still be abusable but a bit less effective.

Maybe remove the cost penalty from Sword Saint (age 3 samurai card), which isn’t necessary at all.
Organs imo could still have the quicker switch between limber and shooting mode, it makes sense even from just watching the actual model of the unit.
Cease fire speed nerf prevents that sepoy get too much on top of your army, while still allowing mahouts to get in contact safely with infantry and cannons.

[Garja]

I didn't consider touching the samurai because the unit is mostly fine. I guess we could remove the penalty vs villagers (nonsense). As for Organs gun I find any buff redundant at this point with both cassadores and xbows being buffed (also two out of three infantry ups moved to colonial).
Cease fire is of course abusable, it is the nature of the ability which is broken in itself. Speed reduction is just an artificial change that I'm not even sure it helps against it. With urumi being nerfed I think cease fire will still be abusable but a bit less effective.

Maybe remove the cost penalty from Sword Saint (age 3 samurai card), which isn’t necessary at all.
Organs imo could still have the quicker switch between limber and shooting mode, it makes sense even from just watching the actual model of the unit.
Cease fire speed nerf prevents that sepoy get too much on top of your army, while still allowing mahouts to get in contact safely with infantry and cannons.

I guess cease fire speed nerfs is ok if it only affects India units.
Organ gun mode switch buff is ok too, just so marginal I'm not sure it deserves a change. By the same logic another 15 or so QoL changes should be added and I don't like that trend.

[chronique]

Imo organ gun mode switch buff is not marginal.

[[Armag] diarouga]

From my discussions with G :

Anyway use the main topic. Some of this discussion is of utility for the community.

2) "- "The Shaman" council increased by 1 War Hut Travois for Colonial, Industrial and Imperial Ages; hp and attack boost moved from the Industrail onwards."
So, that's 2wh to colo, just like in EP8.1 ?
It was too strong compared to the fast age up option, why do you need to change that ?
I discussed about it with Zoi. I also think in some situations it is a bit too strong. Namely when doing timings vs civs like Brits/Japan if Aztecs managed to age at 4.10. On normal age up time however it's not that OP. You get insane amount of units but to do that you have to place the WHs in base or you start training too late (which means later xp and later shipment flow for the timing). In any case I'm open to straight up remove this change as I do also consider it borderline.

Just remove it then imo. And I'd add a small buff to Aztec because else 6coyotes/puma tag are the only relevant changes. Something like +10hp to coyotes sounds fair.

4) "- Territorial army cost increased to 300f 270c (from 285f 255c)."
This is a big nerf and I'm not sure it's deserved. China wasn't that strong honestly, you overestimate this civ imo.
It is quite a nerf yes. But China is like top3 civ on current EP and everyone agrees it's too good. When people say "china xD" or "omg the remass" it is exactly because of banner army being too cheap and fortress shipments being too good. The nerf is actually only 15f 15c so less than 3f 3c for each unit. Considering those units singularly costed 47,5f 42,5f I'd say it's a totally fair nerf. I mean 50f 45c for arq and changdao is completely fine, just compare them to euro skirm and halbs.

People don't think that China is top3 anymore. China was weaker than France/Germany/Brit for instance on most maps in EP6 imo. And it has awkward MUs like Iro/Russia. Of course, the change isn't big, but it's not necessary, especially if you remove fixed crates.

5) Germans :
It's basically current Germany without the uhlan nerf, so it's going to be too strong. If you don't nerf uhlan HP, then you need to nerf something else.
Yes. As I said in the topic I missed some extra nerf probably, like nerfing all age3 cards (-1 ulhan) or at least all the units and crates fortress shipments.
I'd even consider nerfing the 3SW card into 2SW+1v but that would be so controversial that it's not even worth to propose it.
The XP nerf is huge tho. It's 24 seconds slower first shipment in fortress (assuming 3SW 700g 700w in colo). I have mixed-feeling that current EP Germans are mediocre to be fair. All the nerfs they received are huge. And bear in mind that in my patch all of RE units are untouched so it's an indirect nerf to Germans.

I don't know how to nerf it either, but without the uhlan nerf, Germany would be top civ again.
I wouldn't say that Germany is "mediocre" atm, it's probably average while it was top. Atm, you only want to play Germany if you're good at it, while it was the civ 80% of the top players would play before the nerf.

6) "- Howdah ranged resistance decreased to 20% (from 30%). Speed increased to 6.25 (from 6). Mansabdar updated accordingly."
I guess give them +30HP or something to compensate. The unit is already bad, no need to nerf it
Idk about compensating. Howdah are incredibly strong. None puts them in melee for example. In melee they have 31 attack with area1. They're about as good as mahouts (well not quite vs infantry but you get the point) and goons don't counter them.
I didn't nerf them because too good, just all the ranged cav units with ranged res are being nerfed so it is for consistency. I did gave them more speed as 6 is low for a goon type unit, despite being elephant.

Howdahs are not incredibly strong honestly. Especially with RE sepoys, noone would train them.
I do understand that you want their RR for consistency (which makes sense), but you need to compensate that. If people aren't training Howdahs atm, there's no way they will with -10% RR and the other units getting buffed.

7) Iroquois :
I think you'd need to nerf the fp too (like -10hp), because EP Iro with 15% WC aura was too strong, and with 10% aura it's fine. Aennas and MR nerfs aren't going to be enough
Idk about FPs. They're incredibly strong but it's legit. Sioux units are strong too. Aztecs units are as well (at least ERKs are, for comparison). If other people agree on that I'm open to nerf them by 10hp tho. Lower HP, higher attack, even tho I think they are already like that but you don't notice because of the WC hp boost.

The point is that you decided to nerf the units instead of the WC aura. Then, to make it balanced, you need to nerf all the strong units, that is to say aenna (check), MR (check), and fp.
With 15% aura they'll still be much stronger than nilla skirms.
I think that nerfing fp, mr, aennas and reverting the WC nerf would still be a buff overall, and Iro is still one of the strongest civs atm, so no reason to be afraid.

8) "- Shogun Tokugawa aura decreased to +10% hitpoints (from 20%);"
I'd go for 15% first
15% HP for one unit is a colonial shipment, and tokugawa is an age 4 shipment, so it needs to be better. It's a great unit but not worth an age 4 shipment if you nerf the passive bonus that might, and it's part of Japan's identity tbh.
I was also unsure about that but hp buff is usually stronger than attack and everyone agrees Jap units are too strong late game. Also please note that this is exactly the same as current EP, I just copied this change. I think 10% is more safe.

Is it ? I'd argue that attack buff is stronger unless you're under TC fire in early game.
I believe that EP made a mistake here, and 15% feels better.

10) - Yamabushi and Konsha Yamabushi ranged resistance increased to 20% (from 10%).
Why ? The unit is already super strong, if anything, I'd nerf it
Because every other melee infantry with 10% only resistance got buffed. I guess 10% ranged is a bit different but it's not that huge of a buff. Also with all the RE units being untouched, xbows buffed and Russia being slightly buffed in age up time Japan probably benefits from a little buff to defend rushes.

The other units with 10% melee resistance got buffed, but they were shit. You can't compare the shitty pikes with yamabushi. Also yes, 10% RR is very different because the melee units (pikes especially) take much more range damage than melee damage. In fact, +10% melee resist is nice buffs the pikes against huss but it's almost irrelevant.
I'd argue that 10% RR is a huge buff honestly.

12) tajmahal needs a nerf it's retarded else
15% less speed for India units was a good change for it
It nerfed the tajmahal agressive play quite hard, while still being viable in defensive situations
You're the second person arguing for that, I might consider it even tho I think 15% speed nerf doesn't accomplish much. If it nerfs India units only then I guess it's fine and we should keep that.

I guess you were inactive during the cease fire abuse meta, but it really has to be fixed.
15% speed nerf accomplishes a lot, because the indian army can't reach melee anymore, thus it's only defensive (save a TC/Agra, defend a raid) as it's meant to be. With the 15% speed nerf, I'd remove the -5sec nerf because it's just not necessary.

[Imperial Noob]

I think it's a reasonable patch, and a viable alternative to the current EP. Thanks @Garja for the effort.

[chronique]

I don't get the point with iro. I am sure every scientist / rationalist know one of the most important principle before doing something, the well called "Ockham razor". Nerfing the big boys is simple, efficient, its aleready done and it work.