On EP – Past, Present and Future
On EP – Past, Present and Future
Recently, I’ve been articulating, editing, and expanding on some thoughts of mine that I wish to share with you all. They should help anyone with an interest in perspective and understanding, which I know is the vast majority of this community – the entirity of which I work hard to serve.
Disregarding extensive feedback and foregoing immediate, significant improvements – only to avoid the virtual technicality of releasing a minor update during an event – were irresponsible. EP8.2 in actuality consists overwhelmingly of tweaks, directly resulting from player feedback. Had I not made the exception of releasing the update at the time, surely player concerns were both greater and more justified. I’m not able to perfectly take every opinion into account, but I spend a ton of time trying to acquire and consider as many as possible, and EP8.2 is no different, in this regard. Let’s not overreact—with one exception (Consulate bug), player feedback is the very reason for the update’s release!
Every substantial and tangible piece of information available (activity, civilization diversity and extensive feedback & polling) indicates that the patch has grown more balanced and more popular, with every release for which I'm responsible—each one firmly rooted in feedback. For a comprehensive example, I encourage everyone to study the results of the most recent balance poll, as well as the correlation between those results and subsequent updates (EP8 through EP8.2), in addition to subsequent feedback. I am confident that you will find the correlation very strong indeed!
Please know that I have scores of developing (and differing) opinions to consider, and that I work hard to collect and consider them, through chats, ESOC forums and polling. The patch is necessarily a compromise, and those players incapable of accepting or understanding that fact are doing no one – least of all themselves – any good. Unfortunately, when someone insists on reacting negatively to practically everything (regardless of its merit) it becomes harder to take them seriously, their criticism becoming less reliable and less useful.
With regards to the direction of the patch, it is simply unheard of for any respectable RTS to effectively – let alone willfully – keep a huge part of its essential and original content out of the game. Some AoE3 players don't seem to understand just how extreme that position is (it is literally the one absolute extreme of a total of two). This perspective has normalized itself, warping EP balancing discourse. While there are more changes than there were in the past, they remain quite limited indeed when you consider a full and objective perspective, instead of pretending that changing nothing while the game remains in ruins is the moderate position. Please note that none of this is to say that it's an invalid opinion; just an extreme and unrealistic one. It will inevitably have to tolerate some degree of compromise.
With that said, I can easily count such players that I know of on my two hands, and any player under the impression that feedback is not being sufficiently taken into account troubles me. These are valid concerns that I take seriously, and will keep working to address, through communication and the continued expansion of influence of as many players as possible (building on the efforts of balance polling), via coming initiatives, ahead of EP9 – which will focus on balance and the viability of remaining key areas (age-ups, mercenaries, minor native tribes and the Consulate – preliminarily).
Thank you all!
P.S. Although I've barely spent any time at my PC recently, I have been watching some streams. Is it just me, or does civilization diversity – despite the map pool – seem especially good right now, to anyone else?
Disregarding extensive feedback and foregoing immediate, significant improvements – only to avoid the virtual technicality of releasing a minor update during an event – were irresponsible. EP8.2 in actuality consists overwhelmingly of tweaks, directly resulting from player feedback. Had I not made the exception of releasing the update at the time, surely player concerns were both greater and more justified. I’m not able to perfectly take every opinion into account, but I spend a ton of time trying to acquire and consider as many as possible, and EP8.2 is no different, in this regard. Let’s not overreact—with one exception (Consulate bug), player feedback is the very reason for the update’s release!
Every substantial and tangible piece of information available (activity, civilization diversity and extensive feedback & polling) indicates that the patch has grown more balanced and more popular, with every release for which I'm responsible—each one firmly rooted in feedback. For a comprehensive example, I encourage everyone to study the results of the most recent balance poll, as well as the correlation between those results and subsequent updates (EP8 through EP8.2), in addition to subsequent feedback. I am confident that you will find the correlation very strong indeed!
Please know that I have scores of developing (and differing) opinions to consider, and that I work hard to collect and consider them, through chats, ESOC forums and polling. The patch is necessarily a compromise, and those players incapable of accepting or understanding that fact are doing no one – least of all themselves – any good. Unfortunately, when someone insists on reacting negatively to practically everything (regardless of its merit) it becomes harder to take them seriously, their criticism becoming less reliable and less useful.
With regards to the direction of the patch, it is simply unheard of for any respectable RTS to effectively – let alone willfully – keep a huge part of its essential and original content out of the game. Some AoE3 players don't seem to understand just how extreme that position is (it is literally the one absolute extreme of a total of two). This perspective has normalized itself, warping EP balancing discourse. While there are more changes than there were in the past, they remain quite limited indeed when you consider a full and objective perspective, instead of pretending that changing nothing while the game remains in ruins is the moderate position. Please note that none of this is to say that it's an invalid opinion; just an extreme and unrealistic one. It will inevitably have to tolerate some degree of compromise.
With that said, I can easily count such players that I know of on my two hands, and any player under the impression that feedback is not being sufficiently taken into account troubles me. These are valid concerns that I take seriously, and will keep working to address, through communication and the continued expansion of influence of as many players as possible (building on the efforts of balance polling), via coming initiatives, ahead of EP9 – which will focus on balance and the viability of remaining key areas (age-ups, mercenaries, minor native tribes and the Consulate – preliminarily).
Thank you all!
P.S. Although I've barely spent any time at my PC recently, I have been watching some streams. Is it just me, or does civilization diversity – despite the map pool – seem especially good right now, to anyone else?
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Yes,atp civs (spain,port) and aggro civs(azzy,iro,otto) are just good atm,cuz our map pool right now has only maps with atleast 2tps(bering) the others have 3+.i would like to reduce xp income of tps and nat posts and seeing some native units changed.zoom wrote:Recently, I’ve been articulating, editing, and expanding on some thoughts of mine that I wish to share with you all. They should help anyone with an interest in perspective and understanding, which I know is the vast majority of this community – the entirity of which I work hard to serve.
Disregarding extensive feedback and foregoing immediate, significant improvements – only to avoid the virtual technicality of releasing a minor update during an event – were irresponsible. EP8.2 in actuality consists overwhelmingly of tweaks, directly resulting from player feedback. Had I not made the exception of releasing the update at the time, surely player concerns were both greater and more justified. I’m not able to perfectly take every opinion into account, but I spend a ton of time trying to acquire and consider as many as possible, and EP8.2 is no different, in this regard. Let’s not overreact—with one exception (Consulate bug), player feedback is the very reason for the update’s release!
Every substantial and tangible piece of information available (activity, civilization diversity and extensive feedback & polling) indicates that the patch has grown more balanced and more popular, with every release for which I'm responsible—each one firmly rooted in feedback. For a comprehensive example, I encourage everyone to study the results of the most recent balance poll, as well as the correlation between those results and subsequent updates (EP8 through EP8.2), in addition to subsequent feedback. I am confident that you will find the correlation very strong indeed!
Please know that I have scores of developing (and differing) opinions to consider, and that I work hard to collect and consider them, through chats, ESOC forums and polling. The patch is necessarily a compromise, and those players incapable of accepting or understanding that fact are doing no one – least of all themselves – any good. Unfortunately, when someone insists on reacting negatively to practically everything (regardless of its merit) it becomes harder to take them seriously, their criticism becoming less reliable and less useful.
With regards to the direction of the patch, it is simply unheard of for any respectable RTS to effectively – let alone willfully – keep a huge part of its essential and original content out of the game. Some AoE3 players don't seem to understand just how extreme that position is (it is literally the one absolute extreme of a total of two). This perspective has normalized itself, warping EP balancing discourse. While there are more changes than there were in the past, they remain quite limited indeed when you consider a full and objective perspective, instead of pretending that changing nothing while the game remains in ruins is the moderate position. Please note that none of this is to say that it's an invalid opinion; just an extreme and unrealistic one. It will inevitably have to tolerate some degree of compromise.
With that said, I can easily count such players that I know of on my two hands, and any player under the impression that feedback is not being sufficiently taken into account troubles me. These are valid concerns that I take seriously, and will keep working to address, through communication and the continued expansion of influence of as many players as possible (building on the efforts of balance polling), via coming initiatives, ahead of EP9 – which will focus on balance and the viability of remaining key areas (age-ups, mercenaries, minor native tribes and the Consulate – preliminarily).
Thank you all!
P.S. Although I've barely spent any time at my PC recently, I have been watching some streams. Is it just me, or does civilization diversity – despite the map pool – seem especially good right now, to anyone else?
Spain pain train is real
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Man you're fooling yourself, it's crazy. The patch has not grown more balanced and more popular, that's why people are unhappy (and you can see that from the Garja/Somppu polls).Every substantial and tangible piece of information available (activity, civilization diversity and extensive feedback & polling) indicates that the patch has grown more balanced and more popular, with every release for which I'm responsible—each one firmly rooted in feedback.
Tbh, that's because people didn't have time to see the meta evolve around the bad EP 7-8 changes. Why do you discard the Garja/Somppu polls anyway ?I encourage everyone to study the results of the most recent balance poll
Maybe try to count them on somppu's polls then. It's insane, why do you want people to believe that EP8 is popular when it's clearly not ? That's the kind of thing they do in China/Russia/North Korea lol. I'm quite sure that you're not even doing that on purpose.With that said, I can easily count such players that I know of on my two hands, and any player under the impression that feedback is not being sufficiently taken into account troubles me.
Do you realize that you're doing exactly what people are criticizing you for ? You dismiss all the criticism and try to convince people that everything is fine and under control.
Sigh. No, civ diversity is really bad right now, and that's partly because of your changes (although the map pool has a lot to do with this).Is it just me, or does civilization diversity – despite the map pool – seem especially good right now, to anyone else?
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
EP certainly did very good job with balance and more dynamic and versatile play. Good job @zoom. You shouldn't even bother to write this sort of things bcz your excellent work alone is a slap on "the haters" face, who want to make EP a RE in disguise.
Now it is time to take more difficult decisions for the sake of fun and strategic and tactical depth.
Now it is time to take more difficult decisions for the sake of fun and strategic and tactical depth.
#trainableSpahi
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
agreed. It's time for abus aoe, and trainable spahiaqwer wrote:EP certainly did very good job with balance and more dynamic and versatile play. Good job @zoom. You shouldn't even bother to write this sort of things bcz your excellent work alone is a slap on "the haters" face, who want to make EP a RE in disguise.
Now it is time to take more difficult decisions for the sake of fun and strategic and tactical depth.
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Personally I'm happy with the patch right now and a lot more unhappy with the lack of community in "eso community"
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
And much moreamiggo1999 wrote:agreed. It's time for abus aoe, and trainable spahiaqwer wrote:EP certainly did very good job with balance and more dynamic and versatile play. Good job @zoom. You shouldn't even bother to write this sort of things bcz your excellent work alone is a slap on "the haters" face, who want to make EP a RE in disguise.
Now it is time to take more difficult decisions for the sake of fun and strategic and tactical depth.
#trainableSpahi
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
So people that are extremely unhappy with the patch should just shut up and be more community-like?iNcog wrote:Personally I'm happy with the patch right now and a lot more unhappy with the lack of community in "eso community"
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
The majority of the community is done with the Zoi patches, so if anything, keeping a dictator is what creates this lack of community.
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
yeah, you should strive to not be an assholeRefluxSemantic wrote:So people that are extremely unhappy with the patch should just shut up and be more community-like?iNcog wrote:Personally I'm happy with the patch right now and a lot more unhappy with the lack of community in "eso community"
same goes from madrouga
it's honestly so tiring to see every thread devolve into you two flaming people you don't like. boring as fuck
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
They should offer constructive criticism, which is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.RefluxSemantic wrote:So people that are extremely unhappy with the patch should just shut up and be more community-like?iNcog wrote:Personally I'm happy with the patch right now and a lot more unhappy with the lack of community in "eso community"
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
How are we even flaming Zoi ? You're the one flaming here.iNcog wrote:yeah, you should strive to not be an assholeRefluxSemantic wrote:So people that are extremely unhappy with the patch should just shut up and be more community-like?iNcog wrote:Personally I'm happy with the patch right now and a lot more unhappy with the lack of community in "eso community"
same goes from madrouga
it's honestly so tiring to see every thread devolve into you two flaming people you don't like. boring as fuck
I'm annoyed because we're getting bad patches, and I want it to change, but I can't because Zoi goes for some ridiculous propaganda and claims that EP is more balanced and popular than ever, while the community polls clearly show that it's totally wrong.
It's really disappointing to read such a post, it means that Zoi is not planning to change anything and that the situation is not going to improve...
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
We've offered constructive criticism.Jotunir wrote:They should offer constructive criticism, which is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.RefluxSemantic wrote:So people that are extremely unhappy with the patch should just shut up and be more community-like?iNcog wrote:Personally I'm happy with the patch right now and a lot more unhappy with the lack of community in "eso community"
Garja has suggested a change list, which was approved by the community, somppu suggested that top players should take the EP lead, which was approved by the community as well, but nothing is done.
The main criticism that people make is that Zoi does not listen to people and dismisses their criticism, and this thread proves that. Seriously, read this again, he's not admitting that he made mistakes a single time, and tries to explain that everything is fine and that the people who complain are a minority that should be ignored.
What do you want us to do ? I could go over the EP change list (or the EP process), and spend 4-5 hours to make constructive criticism, but that would be ignored. Imagine that in a real country government, the people would go mad and riot if ignored by the government.
So ye, #ZoiOut
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
I would prefer if you do "spend 4-5 hours to make constructive criticism" instead of asking for a coup d'État...[Armag] diarouga wrote:We've offered constructive criticism.Jotunir wrote:They should offer constructive criticism, which is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.Show hidden quotes
Garja has suggested a change list, which was approved by the community, somppu suggested that top players should take the EP lead, which was approved by the community as well, but nothing is done.
The main criticism that people make is that Zoi does not listen to people and dismisses their criticism, and this thread proves that. Seriously, read this again, he's not admitting that he made mistakes a single time, and tries to explain that everything is fine and that the people who complain are a minority that should be ignored.
What do you want us to do ? I could go over the EP change list (or the EP process), and spend 4-5 hours to make constructive criticism, but that would be ignored. Imagine that in a real country government, the people would go mad and riot if ignored by the government.
So ye, #ZoiOut
Just so you know, ad consensus gentium is not a valid argument. In a real country government, if "the people" go mad and riot they are generally repressed.
What I'm saying is that, I disagree with you because I don't believe that the end justifies the means, but I do believe that some things could/should be changed.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
1. So you're telling me that you prefer that I waste 5 hours (again) and get ignored again ? It doesn't sound like a fair solution to me. And I believe that asking for a coup d'État against an unfair dictatorship is a legitimate thing, feel free to disagree with that.Jotunir wrote:I would prefer if you do "spend 4-5 hours to make constructive criticism" instead of asking for a coup d'État...[Armag] diarouga wrote:We've offered constructive criticism.Show hidden quotes
Garja has suggested a change list, which was approved by the community, somppu suggested that top players should take the EP lead, which was approved by the community as well, but nothing is done.
The main criticism that people make is that Zoi does not listen to people and dismisses their criticism, and this thread proves that. Seriously, read this again, he's not admitting that he made mistakes a single time, and tries to explain that everything is fine and that the people who complain are a minority that should be ignored.
What do you want us to do ? I could go over the EP change list (or the EP process), and spend 4-5 hours to make constructive criticism, but that would be ignored. Imagine that in a real country government, the people would go mad and riot if ignored by the government.
So ye, #ZoiOut
Just so you know, ad consensus gentium is not a valid argument. In a real country government, if "the people" go mad and riot they are generally repressed.
2. It depends. Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not. There are many examples of dictators who eventually got ousted (and if you're from Argentina, you should know that).
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
I Just edited my earlier answer with this extra bit, but since you answered so fast, I will add it here:[Armag] diarouga wrote:1. So you're telling me that you prefer that I waste 5 hours (again) and get ignored again ? It doesn't sound like a fair solution to me. And I believe that asking for a coup d'État against an unfair dictatorship is a legitimate thing, feel free to disagree with that.Jotunir wrote:I would prefer if you do "spend 4-5 hours to make constructive criticism" instead of asking for a coup d'État...Show hidden quotes
Just so you know, ad consensus gentium is not a valid argument. In a real country government, if "the people" go mad and riot they are generally repressed.
2. It depends. Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not. There are many examples of dictators who eventually got ousted (and if you're from Argentina, you should know that).
What I'm saying is that, I disagree with you because I don't believe that the end justifies the means, but I do believe that some things could/should be changed.
(I am from Argentina, and you are from France I presume, so you should know as well )
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Now this opinion makes sense to me.Jotunir wrote: What I'm saying is that, I disagree with you because I don't believe that the end justifies the means, but I do believe that some things could/should be changed.
The question is, what should we do to change the "things that could/should be changed" ?
I understand that constantly criticizing the EP8, and asking Zoi's demission might annoy some people, but I don't see what else I can do. Waiting and not doing shit doesn't seem more productive to me, and at this point, I don't believe that it's possible to improve the situation with Zoi being the EP leader.
- chronique
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
This patch is not bad in term of balance, to me is bad in term of design (or at least i don't like it so much, we need to keep in mind, epX >>>>>> RE to me). Xp trickle and tp radius have a realy bad design to me because it start from two (imo wrong) postula :
- all native are equal (xp trickle is for all native, not only bad one)
- some civ can't be balance witout xp buff (xp trickle is also for civ like german on no tp map)
Why not balance civ arround no tp?
Why not balance the natives individually?
- all native are equal (xp trickle is for all native, not only bad one)
- some civ can't be balance witout xp buff (xp trickle is also for civ like german on no tp map)
Why not balance civ arround no tp?
Why not balance the natives individually?
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
1) Eh, because then you'd have to remove TPs from the game ? Just imagine Otto or Germany being balanced around no TP, they'd be far better than RE Iro on TP maps lol.chronique wrote: Why not balance civ arround no tp?
Why not balance the natives individually?
2) Good question. I've been against this nat exp trickle from the start (and honestly, I still don't understand how some people thought that it would be a good idea). This nat TP change lead to grotesque situations, for example the good natives were nerfed in EP8 to compensate this buff xD.
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
That I cannot answer, because I am not qualified to do so and as many in this forum already pointed out harshly, I "lobby for Dutch supremacy". I guess what they mean is that I have biased opinion on the matter.[Armag] diarouga wrote:Now this opinion makes sense to me.Jotunir wrote: What I'm saying is that, I disagree with you because I don't believe that the end justifies the means, but I do believe that some things could/should be changed.
The question is, what should we do to change the "things that could/should be changed" ?
It does annoy sometimes[Armag] diarouga wrote: I understand that constantly criticizing the EP8, and asking Zoi's demission might annoy some people, but I don't see what else I can do. Waiting and not doing shit doesn't seem more productive to me, and at this point, I don't believe that it's possible to improve the situation with Zoi being the EP leader.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Diarouga is the "majority of the community."
Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Civ diversity is mostly a product of tourney rules and it's not even a relevant parameter imo. In such small pool, if players were forced to play just one civ you would probably see quite some bias. In bigger pool it would be more significant.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
In this post zoi basically announces that he plans to sit on the thrown as a dictator. I'm past the point of being constructive. There is no other solution but #zoiout.[Armag] diarouga wrote:How are we even flaming Zoi ? You're the one flaming here.iNcog wrote:yeah, you should strive to not be an assholeShow hidden quotes
same goes from madrouga
it's honestly so tiring to see every thread devolve into you two flaming people you don't like. boring as fuck
I'm annoyed because we're getting bad patches, and I want it to change, but I can't because Zoi goes for some ridiculous propaganda and claims that EP is more balanced and popular than ever, while the community polls clearly show that it's totally wrong.
It's really disappointing to read such a post, it means that Zoi is not planning to change anything and that the situation is not going to improve...
I hope Zoi and his team of faithful minions can stop demonizing people like us. I'm not the asshole here. I dont single handedly take control over the future of competitive aoe like a dictator. I dont continuously dismiss criticism of people I dont like. Im arguing for having a more democratic process, so that the community can have a real say in the future of aoe. That doesnt make me the asshole. Zoi is the asshole for refusing to actually turn ep into a team again.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
And we've been constructive. Since ep4.0 I've spent a ton of time, writing huge posts to warn for the problem with all the design changes. I have continuously argued for a more democratic approach. i have come up with a system where that would be possible.
And you know what the funny thing is? For an 'asshole' I have never pushed myself forward or try to take any power for myself. I'm arguing for more democracy. That is all. The community also wants more democracy. Many staff members even do. And then Zoi comes out with a post announcing that he's doing a great job and that we should ignore all the haters, I just cant be constructive anymore. I've already tried, and the community agreed. There is no point anymore.
I hope esoc staff finally steps in. #zoiout
And you know what the funny thing is? For an 'asshole' I have never pushed myself forward or try to take any power for myself. I'm arguing for more democracy. That is all. The community also wants more democracy. Many staff members even do. And then Zoi comes out with a post announcing that he's doing a great job and that we should ignore all the haters, I just cant be constructive anymore. I've already tried, and the community agreed. There is no point anymore.
I hope esoc staff finally steps in. #zoiout
- princeofcarthage
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future
Perfect live example of why top players or rather players in general shouldn't be game designers or in process of balance. You fail to understand basic game design. Tp is an additional map feature and as such should be treated same. (I have been saying this start of EP, and now many agree).[Armag] diarouga wrote:1) Eh, because then you'd have to remove TPs from the game ? Just imagine Otto or Germany being balanced around no TP, they'd be far better than RE Iro on TP maps lol.chronique wrote: Why not balance civ arround no tp?
Why not balance the natives individually?
This is bit of a balance discussion but to throw some light, lot of today's build orders are reliant on xp. xp is a tricky resource. It is very easy to lose control of it and create deadly snowballs and pretty fast.
Back to design perspective, it's pretty clear that game revolves around Civ and map diversity, and uniqueness. That means some civs are going to be super good on tp maps, some are going to be super good on non-stop maps, some on water maps, while most remaining will be somewhere in between. Balance issue is when those civs are not within reasonable variance where each player has an chance to outplay.
It doesn't mean every civ should be equally good on every map every situation. That practically means one civ, re-skins.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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