On EP – Past, Present and Future

Australia Kawapasaka
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by Kawapasaka »

China trashes Otto and Ger on no-TP, yeah. Probably prefers no-TP against Sioux, Iro, France, Spain and Ports as well.
tbh I think I'd rather play against Aztec on no-TP than any decent stagecoach map as well
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:Honestly there are like 6 civs that are completely viable on no-TP maps as long as there are enough resources (Russia, India, Aztecs, Japan, Brits and Dutch), and maybe four or five more that are somewhat viable even if weaker (France, Spain, Port, Iro, Sioux). If there is water and lots of resources it's even closer.
Now some MUs might be hopeless among those civs but the same can be said on TP maps.

Basically there are only three civs that are completely screwed on a no-TP map : Germany, China and Otto. This sounds good enough to me.
The issue is that the tier 2 (the civs that are somewhat viable) can't compete with the tier 1. So you're never going to pick a tier 2 civ in a tournament. Furthermore, Japan and Brits have bad MUs, so there are only 4 viable civs at tournament level kinda. 4/14 isn't what I would call a great civ diversity.
Ah but that's why you actually want to use Game-theory-approved ways of deciding tournaments MUs instead of the dumb first pick-counter pick that is the current standard.

(Also what are the bad MUs for Brits or Japan that would not be bad also on a TP map since those civs often don't go TP early ?)
Japan gets trashed by Azzy (and Russia imo but this is controversial), and Brit gets trashed by Russia (and arguably India, though not so sure with the nerfs).
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by helln00 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:
"Acceptable" is not well defined, and I guess it's subjective, but to me it's something like "all the civs are, on average, equal on the map you consider".
I don't think that approach to balance will work for aoe 3, because of the nature of the game and the design of the civs. Tbh it feels like a sc definition of balance.

I also see that if that is the acceptable balance to you, then yeah you kind of have to pick either TP or non-tp to balance around and it will be probable that only TP maps will fit this criteria atm.

However I would like to propose that aoe 3 approach to balance should be more that there be a number of viable stratergies and matchups on a particular map. I think one of the worse aspect of the thar desert meta was that the only viable strat was blockhouse agro fort map control. There used to be older games where dutch was a seemingly viable counter to russia on the map and tbh those were some of the most interesting games I remember watching. Tbh if russia even if russia and india were the only viable civ on thar desert I would be fine with it if it wasnt the exact same play every single time.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I don't think that approach to balance will work for aoe 3, because of the nature of the game and the design of the civs. Tbh it feels like a sc definition of balance.
So your goal isn't to have all civs being equally viable ? I don't mean that each MU has to be fair, but there shouldn't be stronger and weaker civs.
I also see that if that is the acceptable balance to you, then yeah you kind of have to pick either TP or non-tp to balance around and it will be probable that only TP maps will fit this criteria atm.
Yes, that's the point I wanted to make .
However I would like to propose that aoe 3 approach to balance should be more that there be a number of viable stratergies and matchups on a particular map.
That's another topic. That's intra civ balance (ie, one civ has several options), not inter civ balance. It's totally possible to work on both, so there is no contradiction.

However, Russia on Thar desert is a very complicated debate because :

1) Russia is one-dimensonial civ (you want to rush, and then contain with a double bh fb), and not just on Thar Desert, and it's really hard to change that. We tried to think of a way to fix Russia, but it felt like each suggestion would make the rush even stronger than it is now. I'm sure everybody agrees that Russia needs to have more options (for the cost of a weaker rush), but nobody managed to find a good solution.

2) Thar Desert is a low resource map, with no chokes. This type of map promotes agressive play, thus you have to rush and take the map there, and Russia happens to be the best civ at it. So of course, if a map forces you to rush, you will have to rush and there won't be "a number of viable strategies and matchups" as rushing is the only viable strategy.
To be fair, that's a map issue. You cannot blame the balance for leading to a one-dimensional rushing meta when the map forces it.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Just balance for standard maps. For those that somehow think having 196 pretty distinct match ups isnt diverse enough, they can always play on some weirder maps.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by helln00 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
I don't think that approach to balance will work for aoe 3, because of the nature of the game and the design of the civs. Tbh it feels like a sc definition of balance.
So your goal isn't to have all civs being equally viable ? I don't mean that each MU has to be fair, but there shouldn't be stronger and weaker civs.
On any particular map I dont think its important that you can potentially play any particular civ if that is what you mean. Like in general in a broad map pool I think its probably good that no one particular civ is dominant in all maps like RE Iro and otto but but other than that I would prefer to see many different things being done rather seeing any particular civ.

Thats why I think that we shouldnt necessarily make it a goal that all civs should be viable on all maps, better to have a diversity of maps where different aspects of a civ can be used and possibly abused. Like one of the reason why China mirrors can be often fun for me to watch was that the options of even how you go and play out the age 3 fights was pretty diverse and shows many things that the civs can do and allows for differnt aspects of the game to be displayed.
That's another topic. That's intra civ balance (ie, one civ has several options), not inter civ balance. It's totally possible to work on both, so there is no contradiction.
I don't neccessarily mean that a civ on its own has to be able to have many options on a map but that there needs to be a couple of viable strategies on paticular map, like a sort of rock sisscor paper kind of deal, hell it can be that only 1 civ can do the strat well but as long as there isnt too dominant of a stratergy on a map it should be fine. That combined with many different maps that shows many different sets of counters I think is what makes the game and the civ shines.
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New Zealand zoom
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

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Post by zoom »

At around this time, in accordance with the OP and with EP8.2 having settled somewhat, I was intent on getting to work on EP9, starting – as usual – by gathering feedback, not least through polling. Contrary to my expectations only recently, I will remain largely unavailable for the foreseeable future. Some things sometimes change. This unfortunately means that I will be unable to invest the vast amount of time required of me to perform to my standards, which is why I’ve made the decision to pass on EP leadership duties to ESOC. I’ve no doubt that they will see to the task to the best of their ability, as I did mine. If nothing else, they do have Eaglemut!

With that, I trust them to continue making—and maintaining—fundamental game improvements, exhaustively collecting and considering player feedback, as well as making thoroughly thought-through changes while actively working to avoid various kinds of detrimental bias and undesirable standardization. You might figure that it is a balancing act of many challenges.

As always, I wish you nothing but the best, and look to the future with some excitement. Thank you all!
:flowers:
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United States of America n0el
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

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Post by n0el »

Thank you for giving us what we have today and best of luck in whatever your future holds! @zoom
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Germany Rohbrot
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by Rohbrot »

Ya, cant believe ppl talk bad about u, @zoom ,when u invested time for a better gameplay in what we play for fun^^
Anyways, i wish you the best in ur life and future.
Stay safely!
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European Union aaryngend
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by aaryngend »

zoom wrote:At around this time, in accordance with the OP and with EP8.2 having settled somewhat, I was intent on getting to work on EP9, starting – as usual – by gathering feedback, not least through polling. Contrary to my expectations only recently, I will remain largely unavailable for the foreseeable future. Some things sometimes change. This unfortunately means that I will be unable to invest the vast amount of time required of me to perform to my standards, which is why I’ve made the decision to pass on EP leadership duties to ESOC. I’ve no doubt that they will see to the task to the best of their ability, as I did mine. If nothing else, they do have Eaglemut!

With that, I trust them to continue making—and maintaining—fundamental game improvements, exhaustively collecting and considering player feedback, as well as making thoroughly thought-through changes while actively working to avoid various kinds of detrimental bias and undesirable standardization. You might figure that it is a balancing act of many challenges.

As always, I wish you nothing but the best, and look to the future with some excitement. Thank you all!
:flowers:
So diarouga won after all? #Zoiout became a reality?
Thanks for your continued efforts over the years (from ASFP to now), some good, some maybe not so stellar.
I wonder which mastermind will become the new EP lead now.

Zoi! :ship:
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

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Post by SoldieR »

Thank you for your efforts.
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Great Britain thomasgreen6
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by thomasgreen6 »

aaryngend wrote: I wonder which mastermind will become the new EP lead now.
I think EP lead, if there is one, should be voted on by the top 20 active players after the conclusion of each patch (say after a major tournament). This could be a direct election or a confidence vote with no confidence leading to a direct election.

Thank you Zoi though for everything you have done and good luck in the future!
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

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Post by n0el »

There will be news post soon, regarding the changes.
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France chronique
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by chronique »

You know what you loose, you don't know what you gain!

@zoom hope you will still arround here to distil your jokes! which i don't understand 90% of the time.
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Brazil lemmings121
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

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Post by lemmings121 »

Not sure what people think, but imo its about time (or 15 years too late) to realize its impossible to make every civ viable and competitive on every map, ES tried, then RE, FP, EP, and all failed hard.

Just accept that the game is too asymmetrical to reach perfect balance, and aim for a map pool based balance. (its ok if only a few civs are viable on water maps, or 5tps maps, or 2tp maps, or no tp maps, etc, as long as it isnt the same civ for every map style.) Just make sure that every map has at least a few viable civs so we dont end up on only mirrors. I mean... wtf is the native TP exp change. feels like it was written just to allow standard euro cav semi ff on no tp maps.


I've been playing a bit of aoe2 lately, and its funny how they dont even consider that a imbalance, they just assume its by design that each civ plays a map type better. (in aoe2 civs are almost identical, but while one has a hunt bonus, and the other has a dock bonus. Its obvious that each of those civs will be used in a specific map type and no balance change will fix that)
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by reuehcS »

n0el wrote:There will be news post soon, regarding the changes.
The balance team must be chosen by voting.
If team members have already been chosen and this post will only inform us, then we don't have democracy and will show that people's opinions don't matter.
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Kiribati princeofcarthage
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by princeofcarthage »

Regardless of what the team thinks, not sure why you think you are entitled to democracy.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by reuehcS »

In my life experience (or a definition of principles), the best for the community is to respect the opinion of the majority.
EP may have some influence on the balance of the Definitive Edition.
I will spend my money purchased definitive edition.

Actually I believe that you are trolling with this sentence ...
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:At around this time, in accordance with the OP and with EP8.2 having settled somewhat, I was intent on getting to work on EP9, starting – as usual – by gathering feedback, not least through polling. Contrary to my expectations only recently, I will remain largely unavailable for the foreseeable future. Some things sometimes change. This unfortunately means that I will be unable to invest the vast amount of time required of me to perform to my standards, which is why I’ve made the decision to pass on EP leadership duties to ESOC. I’ve no doubt that they will see to the task to the best of their ability, as I did mine. If nothing else, they do have Eaglemut!

With that, I trust them to continue making—and maintaining—fundamental game improvements, exhaustively collecting and considering player feedback, as well as making thoroughly thought-through changes while actively working to avoid various kinds of detrimental bias and undesirable standardization. You might figure that it is a balancing act of many challenges.

As always, I wish you nothing but the best, and look to the future with some excitement. Thank you all!
:flowers:
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

Post by aaryngend »

Speculation: Zoi resigned as the EP lead to go work on the aoe3:DE version :ship: :!:
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Re: On EP – Past, Present and Future

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Post by Garja »

please no
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