Native Unit Viability Discussion

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Native Unit Viability Discussion

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Post by dansil92 »

I'd like to get a discussion going regarding making nats viable, but not op or essential. This is my personal suggestions for each and every native unit. I focused entirely on changing only a single thing about the unit, and note that certain ones (cherokee, sohei etc.) Are already pretty good and dont really require any changes.

Carib- 10 range -> 14 range. Decent unit, trash range. Easy fix

Cherokee & klamath- 60 food & 60 wood -> 60f 50w. Both units are identical- Probably not super needed buff but does let you get an extra one out of a wood shipment

Comanche- 10 melee resist -> 30 melee resist. Brings it into a more reasonable level of melee hp, to let it stamd and tank properly

Cree Tracker- 10 attack -> 11 attack. Weird unit. A slight attack buff would be welcome

Mayan- 3x vs cav -> 4x vs cav. All the native pikes are horrible vs cav. This would give them a slight buff without affecting performance vs other units. LI multi should be buffed accordingly

Nootka- 2x vs cav -> 3x vs cav. 10x2 is abysmal for a heavy infantry. As above.

Seminole- 12 range -> 14, possibly 16 range. Long windup on a musk range unit. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Tupi- 10mr (?) -> 30rr. What even is this unit. 30rr is a no brainer on this too. Is an indirect buff to treaty ports so that is something to keep in mind

Cheyenne- 40f 110w -> 70f 80w. Wood cost is very prohibitive currently. Easy fix. Maybe 80f 80w.

Huron- 40rr -> 50rr. Much weaker than iro mantlets.

Mapuche 2x vs cav -> 3x vs cav. As above

Navajo 12 range -> 14 range. No brainer. Fast skirm, gives a chance to favour some good micro.

Zapotec 2x vs cav -> 3x vs cav. As above

Tiger Claw- remove infantry tag. A unit shouldn't be cav and infantry simultaneously.

Jesuit- 17 attack -> 20 attack (Currently does more damage in melee than at range by a significant margin). Pretty trash for cost currently.

Sufi- build limit 6 -> 8,9. Solid unit, good nat rush until you realise you get a batch and one lonely boi. Wouldn't touch the unit otherwise.

Chakram- 15 siege -> 30-40 siege. A gren with 15 siege. oof. Easy fix.

Sohei, rattan both good as is. Apache too

Aztec minor pike unit could use an anticav multi boost too
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

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Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

I think buffing the build limit and the upgrades would be enough to make almost all natives situationally viable.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by Riotcoke »

Mapuche and Nootka shouldn't be touched, maybe even nerfed, they're sort of insane for sitting under tcs and siegeing.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by P i k i l i c »

To be honest I think it's fine that some units like Natives are underused so that you keep the surprise effect when you use them. Also a good number of them are already situationally viable or better in team, but players prefer to keep the BOs they know rather than remember builds that are good only in certain situations
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by helln00 »

doesnt the carib native have higher speed than normal infantry? I think they are suppose to function a bit like ashi with hit and run. making them 14 range might be overkill, I think 12 should do.

Other than that I would like to standardise the range of skirm native to 20. same for sioux actually
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by Riotcoke »

helln00 wrote:doesnt the carib native have higher speed than normal infantry? I think they are suppose to function a bit like ashi with hit and run. making them 14 range might be overkill, I think 12 should do.

Other than that I would like to standardise the range of skirm native to 20. same for sioux actually
12 still make them useless, they're skirm units with an animation with 10 range. Sioux skirm have high attack and low hp and are cheap, so the low range is a consequence of that.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

they make for a good raiding party tho
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by helln00 »

Riotcoke wrote:
helln00 wrote:doesnt the carib native have higher speed than normal infantry? I think they are suppose to function a bit like ashi with hit and run. making them 14 range might be overkill, I think 12 should do.

Other than that I would like to standardise the range of skirm native to 20. same for sioux actually
12 still make them useless, they're skirm units with an animation with 10 range. Sioux skirm have high attack and low hp and are cheap, so the low range is a consequence of that.
Idk considering they have the same base damage as the tupi with twice the hp and have an extra hp upgrade, they always felt like a musk-esque unit for me. if anything we can just shorten their animation as well to make it more fitting to their hit and run style.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by dansil92 »

Whats the point of kiting a unit with the same range? Theres a reason all my buff suggestions are exclusively linked to making the units more functional. Skirmies having more range than musks, pikes with actual multipliers
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by helln00 »

I guess its just more that I dont see the carib native as being skirm like considering its stats. to me its bordering on a musk to a sort of strelet. Its base damge, speed and hp speed feels too much like an ashi.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

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Post by dansil92 »

Ashi have melee multis vs cav, carib have ranged multi vs heavy infantry...?
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by helln00 »

I mean thats why I say bordering on a musk from a strelet. Considering it has more speed, more hp and more attack than a regular archer/skirm unit and it has a special upgrade for HP, I feel like just making it fire from the back isnt playing it to its uniqueness.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

well the chakram is not a grenadier it is a similar unit to the hoop thrower or Incan bolas warrior. Native units usually have decent HP and do not take pop and train fast so do not need to be 'good' units to be balanced.
native warrior build limit could be increased as a start but are these changes for changes sake?

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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by harcha »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:well the chakram is not a grenadier it is a similar unit to the hoop thrower or Incan bolas warrior. Native units usually have decent HP and do not take pop and train fast so do not need to be 'good' units to be balanced.
native warrior build limit could be a start but are these changes for changes sake?
completely agree
another generalization - native units not only have high HP but also low attack and low resists
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by Imperial Noob »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:well the chakram is not a grenadier it is a similar unit to the hoop thrower or Incan bolas warrior. Native units usually have decent HP and do not take pop and train fast so do not need to be 'good' units to be balanced.
native warrior build limit could be a start but are these changes for changes sake?
Why the resistance to make the cookie cutter build meta more complex when people are complaining about it? Even if the nats became a logical element of the game, that would be a good thing, because the BOs would have to aknowledge another element of the game.

For 10 years people have not been using natives, unless to lose. You've streamed plenty of games recently, so tell me, what is the win rate of players in matches where they at least sent native treaties? A very negative one...

P.S. Some will point to a random Aizamk stream with Mapuche or Apache, but that's cherry picking and diverting attention. Give me a Kaiser game where he succesfully used the Zapotec against a good opponent and then we can talk.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Okay middle ground suggestion, I would approve buffing the bad and trash tier minor natives with a build limit and a unit wood cost reduction. I would not change unit stats though.

Natives were probably designed to accompany your strategy and/or army and not form the basis of your strategy. Civ balance becomes horrendous when natives start to become better than the civs own "well trained" army.

P. S. Probably haven't seen to many games on pampas Sierra or Iowa then
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by blackout »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:I think buffing the build limit and the upgrades would be enough to make almost all natives situationally viable.
I think that makes alot of sense.
U want natives to be special and only used sometimes and not every game I guess. So buffing the units specifically could come with the risk of them beeing too strong so just expanding the build limit and buffing some techs should do the job
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by Imperial Noob »

I think the wood cost is the greatest offender.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by iNcog »

Make them cost less wood and just more food? That'd be an option I suppose.

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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

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Post by Plantinator »

:hmm: Trainable spahi from every nat post maybe?
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by dansil92 »

Zapptec like... do 11x2 vs cav. Why is the idea that they do 3x vs cav instead going to suddenly make them overpowered? That is still way worse than a normal pike, heck thats worse than a qiang. But nope, cant change anything, amirite?
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by Scroogie »

nerf rattans theyre better than cuirs!!
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by helln00 »

Plantinator wrote::hmm: Trainable spahi from every nat post maybe?
change the ottto native treaty card to 2 spahi for every post
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

dansil92 wrote:Zapptec like... do 11x2 vs cav. Why is the idea that they do 3x vs cav instead going to suddenly make them overpowered? That is still way worse than a normal pike, heck thats worse than a qiang. But nope, cant change anything, amirite?
lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

if your not building a barracks, a TP could be a better alternative due XP trickle, 15 units build limit, and 3 decents techs as well as a cheaper and stronger upgrade cost. (do look at those other techs as well).

Im not a great player and dont have that flexible knowledge to reguarly include these guys but i feel your direct comparison here to pikes performance vs cav in abscence of ranged fire is a bit 1-dimensional. Having reviewed the comparison and zapotec TP i recommend that this minor native is not to be buffed.
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Re: Native Unit Viability Discussion

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

literally these guys are insane siege units if compared to pikeman.....

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