Native Unit Viability Discussion

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Zapptec like... do 11x2 vs cav. Why is the idea that they do 3x vs cav instead going to suddenly make them overpowered? That is still way worse than a normal pike, heck thats worse than a qiang. But nope, cant change anything, amirite?

if your not building a barracks, a TP could be a better alternative due XP trickle, 15 units build limit, and 3 decents techs as well as a cheaper and stronger upgrade cost. (do look at those other techs as well).

You will still need a barrack for xbows to protect your zapps won't you ?

[harcha]

lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

neat idea, you can also include the housing cost into zapotec warriors cost

[dansil92]

Zaps are like legitimately one of the worst natives. They're slow and essentially no damage to cav or infantry. They're basically mantlets but with... worse siege, lower dps and no range resist

[iNcog]

So not even Mantlets lol

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

My explanation was just theory crafting / looking at the stats. True you would need a rax I going bow pike but then you already decided euro bow pike is better for that particular game. I play Dutch so If I ever was going to get this native I would get it on card 4 / 600 w while lm doing something like a 10 cav semi instead of sending 8 pikes here to pressure other huss and buildings. Then on transition to fortress could get the wood crates upgrade and save your self the 1000w shipment and have that slight tempo bonus in early age 3. I guess you could pull trick across map with cav if your desperate to hit a timing. Zapotecs have exceptionally similar stats {edited} to nootka but nootka cost mostly food but have shit native techs. It's not just about the units but the overall package. Trying to compare a Zapotec to a mantlet is grossly incorrect.

[chris1089]

lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

neat idea, you can also include the housing cost into zapotec warriors cost

This is a joke right?

[harcha]

lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

neat idea, you can also include the housing cost into zapotec warriors cost

This is a joke right?

do you think TPs grow on trees?

[dansil92]

My explanation was just theory crafting / looking at the stats. True you would need a rax I going bow pike but then you already decided euro bow pike is better for that particular game. I play Dutch so If I ever was going to get this native I would get it on card 4 / 600 w while lm doing something like a 10 cav semi instead of sending 8 pikes here to pressure other huss and buildings. Then on transition to fortress could get the wood crates upgrade and save your self the 1000w shipment and have that slight tempo bonus in early age 3. I guess you could pull trick across map with cav if your desperate to hit a timing. Zapotecs have exceptionally similar stats {edited} to nootka but nootka cost mostly food but have shit native techs. It's not just about the units but the overall package. Trying to compare a Zapotec to a mantlet is grossly incorrect.

The reason i compare a zap to a mantlet is that they are slow, bad vs cav, bad vs infantry, decent siegers. Is it so bad to ask for a unit that actually kills cav, since you can only build like a dozen of them anyway

[Imperial Noob]

The "housing cost" doesn't really work, because once a pikeman dies, the population space stays, and the next pike or skirm or musk or any unit forever in the game will not cost this 10w.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

My explanation was just theory crafting / looking at the stats. True you would need a rax I going bow pike but then you already decided euro bow pike is better for that particular game. I play Dutch so If I ever was going to get this native I would get it on card 4 / 600 w while lm doing something like a 10 cav semi instead of sending 8 pikes here to pressure other huss and buildings. Then on transition to fortress could get the wood crates upgrade and save your self the 1000w shipment and have that slight tempo bonus in early age 3. I guess you could pull trick across map with cav if your desperate to hit a timing. Zapotecs have exceptionally similar stats {edited} to nootka but nootka cost mostly food but have shit native techs. It's not just about the units but the overall package. Trying to compare a Zapotec to a mantlet is grossly incorrect.

The reason i compare a zap to a mantlet is that they are slow, bad vs cav, bad vs infantry, decent siegers. Is it so bad to ask for a unit that actually kills cav, since you can only build like a dozen of them anyway

zapotec are pike style infantry costing 40 food and 60 wood and huron mantlets cost 50 wood 100 coin. zapotecs are alright vs cav thanks to their high Hp and trade cost effectively vs huss in age 2. while mantlets excel in ranged combat tanking musk / town centre fire. per unit cost zapotecs are better siegers than huron mantlets with respect to damage output. Mantlets can tank a lot of damage with 250HP and ranged resist. The only map where you find zapotecs in 1v1 supremecy on RE is yucatan which is also home to the mayans which are also pikeman. Forgive if i am missing something obvious here but i dont get why you are making such a fuss about the zapotecs

[LegalPenguin]

I always felt like the natives were support units for your main army, hence the no-population cost.
If you want strong natives, you should send the cards necessary that make them viable as a "stand alone" army.

I do not feel like these changes are necessary, because you run the risk of nations preferring to use natives instead of their own units (thinking of China, for example) and that is not the purpose of these settlements.
A native rush is cool, because it's rare, but it was never meant as a "strong" strategy. If it was, every nation except the Warchiefs, India and Russia would do it to get a sort of rax/stable up before hitting age II.
Adding in the recent patch, giving TP's on native settlements an XP-trickle, you'll be really favouring native play over your own units, I feel.

Do we really want nootka vs nootka base trade every game?

[pérez]

i think cree trackers are good in stat wise but their only problem is the wood cost, is too much, if they would be more balanced in cost they would be pretty viable, even more knowing that in cree's nat tp u can also build cdbs, anyways that nat tp is already viable with the cdbs couse the map helps it to make it viable putting the tp in the back of ur tc, but speaking about the unit itself the only problem i see is the wood heavy cost.

[iNcog]

cree trackers don't do damage but they are unkillable already as it is. not sure about a buff to that unit

[Rohbrot]

cree trackers don't do damage but they are unkillable already as it is. not sure about a buff to that unit

You know em very well, due 12games when trained me for incogs cup.

[chronique]

This discussion should have happend before ep7 and xp trickle imo.

[rnmrtzk]

I have no problem with buffing the natives if silmultaniously spies are buffed too. Give spies sth. like a x8.0/x9.0 multiplicator against natives. Problem solved xD

[Jotunir]

Carib- 10 range -> 14 range. Decent unit, trash range. Easy fix

I couldn't agree more with you on that one.

[Rohbrot]

notkas are bad aswell, 10x2 vs cav what a joke :(

[harcha]

I have no problem with buffing the natives if silmultaniously spies are buffed too. Give spies sth. like a x8.0/x9.0 multiplicator against natives. Problem solved xD

i see your point but i think that spies aren't intended to counter natives. that is why the multiplier isn't displayed. making nats is not supposed to be cheesy enough to warrant a specific counter unit

[duckzilla]

Caribs may be a weird unit, but giving them a decent range (strelets have 14 as well) could make them overpowered.

The stats:
65f/35w for 160hp / 10% RR / 19dmg (* 2 against HI)

The unit is cheaper than a longbow, but has a whopping 160 hp, more than any other skirm/xbow-type unit in the game. On top of it, the unit does 38dmg per shot against heavy infantry already in age II. It can also be massed in acceptable quantities, because the build limit per TP is 15 plus an additional 9 "ambush warriors" which your explorer can build. Taking the extreme example of French, an age III carib blowgunner can have the following stats:
49f / 26w for 312 hp / 36 dmg
These stats are better than fully carded Dutch imperial skirmishers for ~half the cost and in age III.

[Plantinator]

Caribs may be a weird unit, but giving them a decent range (strelets have 14 as well) could make them overpowered.

The stats:
65f/35w for 160hp / 10% RR / 19dmg (* 2 against HI)

The unit is cheaper than a longbow, but has a whopping 160 hp, more than any other skirm/xbow-type unit in the game. On top of it, the unit does 38dmg per shot against heavy infantry already in age II. It can also be massed in acceptable quantities, because the build limit per TP is 15 plus an additional 9 "ambush warriors" which your explorer can build. Taking the extreme example of French, an age III carib blowgunner can have the following stats:
49f / 26w for 312 hp / 36 dmg
These stats are better than fully carded Dutch imperial skirmishers for ~half the cost and in age III.

True but doesnt the carib have an rly awkward Animation that makes 14 range more like 12?

[helln00]

their animation is nowhere near as akward as some of the other archer natives, like tupi animation is stupid. I think making thing 12 range would be more than enough

[chronique]

notkas are bad aswell, 10x2 vs cav what a joke :(

I am pretty ok with that. No need to standardize every unit, native pik are not great vs cav overall but more tanky.

There is a way to give a free ambassade wagon when you pick a native tp? because sometime the nat tp is in akward spot.

[Plantinator]

their animation is nowhere near as akward as some of the other archer natives, like tupi animation is stupid. I think making thing 12 range would be more than enough

The only question i have is whether u could kite them with muskets then haha

[rnmrtzk]

I have no problem with buffing the natives if silmultaniously spies are buffed too. Give spies sth. like a x8.0/x9.0 multiplicator against natives. Problem solved xD

i see your point but i think that spies aren't intended to counter natives. that is why the multiplier isn't displayed. making nats is not supposed to be cheesy enough to warrant a specific counter unit

yeah, I guess it was more some kind of joke (even so it was intended as a productive joke, insofar the idea of spy-native-battles made me laugh^^)

btw as a noob and especially as a "mainly re scrub" I don't feel like I'm in the position to really understand what measures should be taken in regard of ep-balance... but I like the idea that inventing some new build orders is worthwile again... I think the "rohbrot-phenomenon" is showing how much fun it is for a player to invent new strats and not just coping as a copycat around like me. I think everybody likes the idea of being an inventor a little bit and therefore we like the idea of massive changes because we think that this will enable us to have our own strats etc....