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I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:

dansil92 wrote:Zapptec like... do 11x2 vs cav. Why is the idea that they do 3x vs cav instead going to suddenly make them overpowered? That is still way worse than a normal pike, heck thats worse than a qiang. But nope, cant change anything, amirite?

if your not building a barracks, a TP could be a better alternative due XP trickle, 15 units build limit, and 3 decents techs as well as a cheaper and stronger upgrade cost. (do look at those other techs as well).

You will still need a barrack for xbows to protect your zapps won't you ?

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

harcha wrote:

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

neat idea, you can also include the housing cost into zapotec warriors cost

chris1089 wrote:

harcha wrote:

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:lets say you include housing cost into pikeman stats pikes cost 40 food 50 wood vs 40 food 60 wood zapotec warriors so relatively similar cost. The guys have same hand resist but have an extra 90 Hp meaning in a prolonged infantry vs cavalry fight they still alright, 210 HP and 22 attack vs 120 HP and 40 attack. What these units do better is the ability to block cav from skirms/falcs for longer due to extra HP and so are less vulnerable to ranged units including skirm/musk/Town centres. The siege is almost the exactly the same. these guys train 7 seconds faster, move 0.5 speed more slowly. Give +6 extra XP per unit trained (property of native units).

neat idea, you can also include the housing cost into zapotec warriors cost

This is a joke right?

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:My explanation was just theory crafting / looking at the stats. True you would need a rax I going bow pike but then you already decided euro bow pike is better for that particular game. I play Dutch so If I ever was going to get this native I would get it on card 4 / 600 w while lm doing something like a 10 cav semi instead of sending 8 pikes here to pressure other huss and buildings. Then on transition to fortress could get the wood crates upgrade and save your self the 1000w shipment and have that slight tempo bonus in early age 3. I guess you could pull trick across map with cav if your desperate to hit a timing. Zapotecs have exceptionally similar stats {edited} to nootka but nootka cost mostly food but have shit native techs. It's not just about the units but the overall package. Trying to compare a Zapotec to a mantlet is grossly incorrect.

dansil92 wrote:

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:My explanation was just theory crafting / looking at the stats. True you would need a rax I going bow pike but then you already decided euro bow pike is better for that particular game. I play Dutch so If I ever was going to get this native I would get it on card 4 / 600 w while lm doing something like a 10 cav semi instead of sending 8 pikes here to pressure other huss and buildings. Then on transition to fortress could get the wood crates upgrade and save your self the 1000w shipment and have that slight tempo bonus in early age 3. I guess you could pull trick across map with cav if your desperate to hit a timing. Zapotecs have exceptionally similar stats {edited} to nootka but nootka cost mostly food but have shit native techs. It's not just about the units but the overall package. Trying to compare a Zapotec to a mantlet is grossly incorrect.

The reason i compare a zap to a mantlet is that they are slow, bad vs cav, bad vs infantry, decent siegers. Is it so bad to ask for a unit that actually kills cav, since you can only build like a dozen of them anyway

iNcog wrote:cree trackers don't do damage but they are unkillable already as it is. not sure about a buff to that unit

dansil92 wrote:Carib- 10 range -> 14 range. Decent unit, trash range. Easy fix

rnmrtzk wrote:I have no problem with buffing the natives if silmultaniously spies are buffed too. Give spies sth. like a x8.0/x9.0 multiplicator against natives. Problem solved xD

duckzilla wrote:Caribs may be a weird unit, but giving them a decent range (strelets have 14 as well) could make them overpowered.

The stats:
65f/35w for 160hp / 10% RR / 19dmg (* 2 against HI)

The unit is cheaper than a longbow, but has a whopping 160 hp, more than any other skirm/xbow-type unit in the game. On top of it, the unit does 38dmg per shot against heavy infantry already in age II. It can also be massed in acceptable quantities, because the build limit per TP is 15 plus an additional 9 "ambush warriors" which your explorer can build. Taking the extreme example of French, an age III carib blowgunner can have the following stats:
49f / 26w for 312 hp / 36 dmg
These stats are better than fully carded Dutch imperial skirmishers for ~half the cost and in age III.

Rohbrot wrote:notkas are bad aswell, 10x2 vs cav what a joke :(

helln00 wrote:their animation is nowhere near as akward as some of the other archer natives, like tupi animation is stupid. I think making thing 12 range would be more than enough

harcha wrote:

rnmrtzk wrote:I have no problem with buffing the natives if silmultaniously spies are buffed too. Give spies sth. like a x8.0/x9.0 multiplicator against natives. Problem solved xD

i see your point but i think that spies aren't intended to counter natives. that is why the multiplier isn't displayed. making nats is not supposed to be cheesy enough to warrant a specific counter unit