Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

User avatar
European Union aaryngend
Howdah
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sep 26, 2015
Location: Germany
Clan: N3O

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by aaryngend »

fei123456 wrote:I agree with removing revolt out from the game. It just doesn't make sense.
How does it not make sense? You revolt against your mother country, for example, that's what the US did with the British Empire. Obviously your home city shipments and a lot of other things change with that, like not being able to go to age V after the revolt. It makes sense historically.
All the civilizations in aoe3 are european ones which arrived at the "new world". TWC introduced the natives and TAD the asians.

If you mean gameplaywise, it still does and I don't think anyone here is keen on removing it entirely. Balance/change, yes, but removing it??
You are all alone on that front mate :chinese:
No Flag helln00
Howdah
Posts: 1410
Joined: Jan 28, 2017
ESO: helln00

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by helln00 »

I think the problem with the hussar is just that its not just a free imp ugrade but also free guard and veteran upgrade as well. If we want to fix I think we could just make it work the same way as the legendary native upgrade works, ie make it only give the imp upgrade without the other upgrades. It means that to get the full imp package the revolt player still have to sink an additional 1600 - 2400 resources. It will still be a significant power boost but on paper it will just be equivalent to a free guard and veteran which is like a church shipment or the winged hussar shipment.
User avatar
Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1626
Joined: Jan 15, 2016
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

  • Quote

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Revolting makes sense as it draws inspiration from odin/thor ragnarok in age of mythology. I have seen some proper wacky suggestions. I could argue buff the cm HP upgrade politician to 15% HP and reduce the imp cav politician to 8 hussars.

I like it when I watch streams with players getting salty over being revolted on, wouldn't want that to change
No Flag Astaroth
Howdah
Posts: 1037
Joined: Jul 21, 2019

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Astaroth »

Honestly, revolt is fine. It isnt too strong right now.

How often have we seen successful revolts in any tourneys? Like once, tabben vs diarouga. If it was too strong, you'd see it succeed more often.

I get that it is a bit of a cheese, but it high risk high reward and punishes bot defensive meta builds without scouting, which is a good thing.

It's also silly to just look at one aspect of sth to decide if it's too strong. Yes, imp huss are really strong and hard to counter if you don't prepare or adapt. But mostly, the opponent should never get to that point or be countered hard anyway.
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by chronique »

Astaroth wrote:Honestly, revolt is fine. It isnt too strong right now.

How often have we seen successful revolts in any tourneys? Like once, tabben vs diarouga. If it was too strong, you'd see it succeed more often.
Because otto and spain wasn't top civ before. Also, there are not so many player who trie to abus of this kind of mechanic.

And to be 100% honest, is just cancer to play against :P
No Flag Astaroth
Howdah
Posts: 1037
Joined: Jul 21, 2019

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Astaroth »

Yeah, I get that it's annoying, but so are many things, depending on your perspective, such as walls, Russian rush etc. I just feel it's wrong to change everything that is slightly viable but that some people consider annoying.

And I do think it would be used more often if it was effective. Lots of other strats got adopted really quickly as well.

If you remove all these quirky things you'll end up with just defensive or skirm/goon bot meta.
User avatar
Germany aligator92
Howdah
Posts: 1519
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: aligator92

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by aligator92 »

I think we should balance the revolt options around the level of the dutch and port native revoltuion (i.e. nerf the 10 imp huss (maybe make it 12 huss + guard upgrade) and buff all the other useless options)
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by chronique »

aligator92 wrote:I think we should balance the revolt options around the level of the dutch and port native revoltuion (i.e. nerf the 10 imp huss (maybe make it 12 huss + guard upgrade) and buff all the other useless options)
I am ok with that, if ppl realy want heard the sound of revolt (which is quite good).
No Flag Astaroth
Howdah
Posts: 1037
Joined: Jul 21, 2019

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Astaroth »

aligator92 wrote:I think we should balance the revolt options around the level of the dutch and port native revoltuion (i.e. nerf the 10 imp huss (maybe make it 12 huss + guard upgrade) and buff all the other useless options)
Those basically never get used, though. Even the strongest options basically dont get used at the top.
User avatar
Argentina Jotunir
Howdah
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mar 31, 2020
Location: Argentina

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Jotunir »

There is also another issue that has not been brought up yet. The fact that 3 civs have the colombian revolution while only 1 civ has the Argentine revolution.
I suggest that we give the Argentine revolution to the French because it fits better than the colombian one there.
Also it will fix this revolution distribution imbalance.
If someone wants to make a poll about it, I would really appreciate it :smile:
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3476
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

I am surprised India does not make it to top of list and have more exposure to its better than revolution card that turns vils into sepoy. This can be used so many ways its just a phenomenal way to Revolt with still being able to retrain vils, make more buildings, and have even better units than colonial militia. Especially for team games.
No Flag Astaroth
Howdah
Posts: 1037
Joined: Jul 21, 2019

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

  • Quote

Post by Astaroth »

Jotunir wrote:There is also another issue that has not been brought up yet. The fact that 3 civs have the colombian revolution while only 1 civ has the Argentine revolution.
I suggest that we give the Argentine revolution to the French because it fits better than the colombian one there.
Also it will fix this revolution distribution imbalance.
If someone wants to make a poll about it, I would really appreciate it :smile:
Nobody cares about your nationalist dickwaving of whether your country is represented more or less. Its a freaking fictional video game, it doesn't affect your Argentine pride that your nation doesn't play a big role there.
User avatar
Great Britain chris1089
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2651
Joined: Feb 11, 2017
ESO: chris1089

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by chris1089 »

I had to like the above post because of the Falklands.
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 7068
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
ESO: jezabob
Clan: 팀 하우스

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by n0el »

Here's how i'd change them. Chile might not need a nerf.

Argentina - ships 3 imperial field guns
Brazil - Fine
Chile - 10->8 Hussars
Columbia - Fine
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP
Mexico - Ships 10 Aztec Jaguar Warrior and 10 Aztec Eagle Warrior (upgrades to legendary)
Peru - All Units get +15% HP
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000)
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece)
mad cuz bad
User avatar
Argentina Jotunir
Howdah
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mar 31, 2020
Location: Argentina

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Jotunir »

Astaroth wrote:
Jotunir wrote:There is also another issue that has not been brought up yet. The fact that 3 civs have the colombian revolution while only 1 civ has the Argentine revolution.
I suggest that we give the Argentine revolution to the French because it fits better than the colombian one there.
Also it will fix this revolution distribution imbalance.
If someone wants to make a poll about it, I would really appreciate it :smile:
Nobody cares about your nationalist dickwaving of whether your country is represented more or less. Its a freaking fictional video game, it doesn't affect your Argentine pride that your nation doesn't play a big role there.
It is not about "nationalist dickwaving". I am against nationalisms actually. It is because in the game, the options are badly distributed. Try to show some respect.
User avatar
Argentina Jotunir
Howdah
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mar 31, 2020
Location: Argentina

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Jotunir »

n0el wrote:Here's how i'd change them. Chile might not need a nerf.

Argentina - ships 3 imperial field guns
Brazil - Fine
Chile - 10->8 Hussars
Columbia - Fine
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP
Mexico - Ships 10 Aztec Jaguar Warrior and 10 Aztec Eagle Warrior (upgrades to legendary)
Peru - All Units get +15% HP
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000)
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece)
I like the ideas you proposed, but I would change less things:

Argentina - Only a slight nerf is required, I would say 5-4 howitzers instead of 6 is the way to go.
Brazil - no changes
Chile - no changes (debatable)
Columbia - no changes
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP (this is actually an excellent idea from your part)
Mexico - I would not change it the way you propose mainly because those units where long gone by the time of the mexican revolution. Personally I think it is fine as it is now.
Peru - All Units get +15% HP (this is a good and reasonable buff to this revolution option, I agree with you)
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP (I like this change you proposed as well)

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000) Yes
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece) also yes
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:Here's how i'd change them. Chile might not need a nerf.

Argentina - ships 3 imperial field guns
Brazil - Fine
Chile - 10->8 Hussars
Columbia - Fine
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP
Mexico - Ships 10 Aztec Jaguar Warrior and 10 Aztec Eagle Warrior (upgrades to legendary)
Peru - All Units get +15% HP
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000)
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece)
I wouldn't buff the gatlings so much. They're already decent and do their job, and if you ship 4 gatlings, it will be impossible to predict if your opponent is going to revolt with the hussars or with the gatlings, and thus adapting your composition.
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Imperial Noob »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:Here's how i'd change them. Chile might not need a nerf.

Argentina - ships 3 imperial field guns
Brazil - Fine
Chile - 10->8 Hussars
Columbia - Fine
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP
Mexico - Ships 10 Aztec Jaguar Warrior and 10 Aztec Eagle Warrior (upgrades to legendary)
Peru - All Units get +15% HP
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000)
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece)
I wouldn't buff the gatlings so much. They're already decent and do their job, and if you ship 4 gatlings, it will be impossible to predict if your opponent is going to revolt with the hussars or with the gatlings, and thus adapting your composition.
So... in your view, because of the all-in nature of revolutions, there cannot be two options?
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Peachrocks »

Imperial Noob wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:Here's how i'd change them. Chile might not need a nerf.

Argentina - ships 3 imperial field guns
Brazil - Fine
Chile - 10->8 Hussars
Columbia - Fine
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP
Mexico - Ships 10 Aztec Jaguar Warrior and 10 Aztec Eagle Warrior (upgrades to legendary)
Peru - All Units get +15% HP
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000)
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece)
I wouldn't buff the gatlings so much. They're already decent and do their job, and if you ship 4 gatlings, it will be impossible to predict if your opponent is going to revolt with the hussars or with the gatlings, and thus adapting your composition.
So... in your view, because of the all-in nature of revolutions, there cannot be two options?
Yeah because then you are playing rock/paper/scissors. Guess right you win, guess wrong you lose.

IMO revolutions need to be reworked entirely to be less polarising and less of an all in.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Imperial Noob wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:Here's how i'd change them. Chile might not need a nerf.

Argentina - ships 3 imperial field guns
Brazil - Fine
Chile - 10->8 Hussars
Columbia - Fine
Haiti - 16 colonial militia and +10% HP
Mexico - Ships 10 Aztec Jaguar Warrior and 10 Aztec Eagle Warrior (upgrades to legendary)
Peru - All Units get +15% HP
USA- Ships 4 Gatling Guns and Grants +20% HP

Ironclads: HP increased from 2000 to 2500 (Imperial Frigate has 3000)
Gatling Gun: Attack increased from 30 to 40 (more inline with an imperial artillery piece)
I wouldn't buff the gatlings so much. They're already decent and do their job, and if you ship 4 gatlings, it will be impossible to predict if your opponent is going to revolt with the hussars or with the gatlings, and thus adapting your composition.
So... in your view, because of the all-in nature of revolutions, there cannot be two options?
More or less. I'm saying that atm, if you don't scout a revolt early, you automatically lose the game because you don't have the time to adapt and counter it.

If you give more than one strong option, the issue will be that even if you scout it, you won't be able to adapt because you can't know what option he'll pick.
You don't want to be playing rock/paper/scissor when you scout what your opponent is doing.
User avatar
Argentina Jotunir
Howdah
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mar 31, 2020
Location: Argentina

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Jotunir »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:
Show hidden quotes
So... in your view, because of the all-in nature of revolutions, there cannot be two options?
More or less. I'm saying that atm, if you don't scout a revolt early, you automatically lose the game because you don't have the time to adapt and counter it.

If you give more than one strong option, the issue will be that even if you scout it, you won't be able to adapt because you can't know what option he'll pick.
You don't want to be playing rock/paper/scissor when you scout what your opponent is doing.
Sun Tzu wrote: What enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation.

Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

Hence the use of spies...
If you scout properly, you shouldn't have problems adapting.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jotunir wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes
More or less. I'm saying that atm, if you don't scout a revolt early, you automatically lose the game because you don't have the time to adapt and counter it.

If you give more than one strong option, the issue will be that even if you scout it, you won't be able to adapt because you can't know what option he'll pick.
You don't want to be playing rock/paper/scissor when you scout what your opponent is doing.
Sun Tzu wrote: What enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation.

Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

Hence the use of spies...
If you scout properly, you shouldn't have problems adapting.
No, that's wrong. You can scout that your opponent is going for a FI (and guess that it is a revolt I guess, not even sure), but then you can't know what politician he'll pick for revolt before he revolts, and then it's too late to adapt.
User avatar
Argentina Jotunir
Howdah
Posts: 1367
Joined: Mar 31, 2020
Location: Argentina

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Jotunir »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Jotunir wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Sun Tzu wrote: What enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation.

Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

Hence the use of spies...
If you scout properly, you shouldn't have problems adapting.
No, that's wrong. You can scout that your opponent is going for a FI (and guess that it is a revolt I guess, not even sure), but then you can't know what politician he'll pick for revolt before he revolts, and then it's too late to adapt.
It is not wrong what Sun Tzu says, you are wrong. If you know what the enemy is planning you can adapt. Now you say that because there are 2 options you cannot react fast enough and I say that is a lie, there are ways to reduce the training speed of units, so you can create a counter army quickly, and also there are only 2 options anyway for a revolution so it is not something that should be specially random for you to handle.
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by Peachrocks »

The problem is that the Hussar option is so strong that it's only NOT a problem because if you know your opponent is revolting they are going to have very powerful Hussars. If you add another equally powerful option it becomes problematic. There's a reason why nobody picks any other revolt choice with any civ. Even Brazil almost never gets used. Imperial Hussar revolt is honestly busted. The only reason it's not overpowered is because it's very predictable. Take that away and you've got problems.

Really I'd want to throw some ideas to make this a thing because revolutionary nations are a cool thing in the period but the mechanic is just so unhealthy as it is now. As for Sun Tzu, he never had to deal with men being conjured out of thin air, so don't bring him into this. I imagine the art of war would be a very different read if this was the case.
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: Balancing Revolution Options for European Civs

Post by chronique »

Pls don't give more than ZERO option to revolt because this stuff shouldn't exist in rts games. Revolt are only for casual players. I think this is the most "broken" (in term of design) stuff of aoe (all aoe included).

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV