EP 9 Random changes

[Jotunir]

CHINA
- All "Honoured" upgrades cost increased to 350w 350c (from 300w 300c)
RUSSIA
- All "Veteran" upgrades cost decreased to 200w 100c (from 200w 200c)

When has this been discussed?
I am specially bothered by this because it completely destroys consistency between civilizations.
I made a comment long ago about fixing this issues, but I never thought that this patch would enhance them on purpose without a proper debate.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It was discussed in the EP team. The big changes are polled on ESOC, but we'd have to open too many topics to discuss every change, I guess you can always open a thread like you did if you disagree.

I'm not really a big fan of these changes either but they're not too relevant (they barely affect the game balance). The idea was that the chinese FI is too strong atm (which is a fact) and that the honoured upgrade nerf was a way to nerf it (I don't think that it's the best way but w/e). 300/300 already breaks the "consistency" so 350/350 isn't a major design issue.

As for Russia, their early fortress is terrible because you have to upgrade all your units, and the upgrade cost change is one way to fix that. Besides, it's not unconsistent with the TAD veteran upgrades.

[Jotunir]

It was discussed in the EP team. The big changes are polled on ESOC, but we'd have to open too many topics to discuss every changes, I guess you can always open a thread like you did if you disagree.

I'm not really a big fan of these changes either but they're not too relevant (they barely affect the game balance). The idea was that the chinese FI is too strong atm (which is a fact) and that the honoured upgrade nerf was a way to nerf it (I don't think that it's the best way but w/e). 300/300 already breaks the "consistency" so 350/350 isn't a major design issue.

As for Russia, their early fortress is terrible because you have to upgrade all your units, and the upgrade cost change is one way to fix that. Besides, it's not unconsistent with the TAD veteran upgrades.

Well, having thought and read about it I agree that it is not a big deal for the chinese.

As for the Russians, one could say that it's ok. After all, Russia is indeed partly asian.
Thank you for clarifying the reasoning behind this changes.

Just for the sake of curiosity, do you know more or less when EP 9 will be released?

[[Armag] diarouga]

It was discussed in the EP team. The big changes are polled on ESOC, but we'd have to open too many topics to discuss every changes, I guess you can always open a thread like you did if you disagree.

I'm not really a big fan of these changes either but they're not too relevant (they barely affect the game balance). The idea was that the chinese FI is too strong atm (which is a fact) and that the honoured upgrade nerf was a way to nerf it (I don't think that it's the best way but w/e). 300/300 already breaks the "consistency" so 350/350 isn't a major design issue.

As for Russia, their early fortress is terrible because you have to upgrade all your units, and the upgrade cost change is one way to fix that. Besides, it's not unconsistent with the TAD veteran upgrades.

Chinese upgrade costs are consistent with japanese and Indian upgrades so...
There should be a better way to adress chinese FI being too strong without randomizing upgrade costs.

As for the Russians, one could say that it's ok. After all, Russia is indeed partly asian.
Thank you for clarifying the reasoning behind this changes.

Just for the sake of curiosity, do you know more or less when EP 9 will be released?

Jap and India upgrades are 600/600 so it's not consistent.

I don't know when EP9 will be released no. From what I've understood, it won't be this week-end.

[iCourt]

Abus breaks the guard upgrade consistency and it's hardly ever brought up.

If anything the TAD and TWC expansions really glorified the whole very inconsistent pricing on age 3 and age 4 techs and it's always been argued as a civ bonus or what not. (And that's a fine argument to make before I get a bunch of people's panties in a twist)

On to my point:

Now my interest would be in the Russian church tech to upgrade units to veteran. Currently it is 900w for 4 unit upgrades. If the cost of veteran techs are reduced this church tech should stay inline and drop to a cost of ~675w.

I only bring this up as reducing the veteran techs already makes this hard to justify tech even harder to justify. Might need to look at this later down the line. ~675w might be too good?

[Jotunir]

Jap and India upgrades are 600/600 so it's not consistent.

I just finished editing my previous comment because I checked the values and indeed you are correct about that.

[harcha]

RUSSIA
- All "Veteran" upgrades cost decreased to 200w 100c (from 200w 200c)

When has this been discussed?
I am specially bothered by this because it completely destroys consistency between civilizations.

yeah that is pretty bs considering that strelet and cossack are already excellent in lategame and the russian veteran musk upgrade is also significantly better than that of say french

don't have anything against china nerfs

[EAGLEMUT]

Abus breaks the guard upgrade consistency and it's hardly ever brought up.

That inconsistency is fixed on EP.

[harcha]

As for Russia, their early fortress is terrible because you have to upgrade all your units, and the upgrade cost change is one way to fix that. Besides, it's not unconsistent with the TAD veteran upgrades.

yeah well you could also make the same argument for brits and otto. to me it seems silly to break what was taken for granted these last 15 years.

[n0el]

Everyone loves semi FF meta anyways so who cares

[[Armag] diarouga]

As for Russia, their early fortress is terrible because you have to upgrade all your units, and the upgrade cost change is one way to fix that. Besides, it's not unconsistent with the TAD veteran upgrades.

yeah well you could also make the same argument for brits and otto. to me it seems silly to break what was taken for granted these last 15 years.

I wouldn't mind if this change gets reverted but Otto and Brit have ff builds, Russia doesn't.

[princeofcarthage]

Russia having terrible early fortress is a compromise/trade-off for having superb late colonial, how many times have we seen late colonial evening beating certain fortress civs? There is absolutely no need for every civ to have good ff or even semi for that matter.

[iCourt]

Abus breaks the guard upgrade consistency and it's hardly ever brought up.

That inconsistency is fixed on EP.

Ah that's right it's +1 range for vet and guard for EP. So still inconsistent, just in a different form.

[harcha]

As for Russia, their early fortress is terrible because you have to upgrade all your units, and the upgrade cost change is one way to fix that. Besides, it's not unconsistent with the TAD veteran upgrades.

yeah well you could also make the same argument for brits and otto. to me it seems silly to break what was taken for granted these last 15 years.

I wouldn't mind if this change gets reverted but Otto and Brit have ff builds, Russia doesn't.

why revert, i just want to buff otto man

[chronique]

Why buff russia when we will nerf tp, which basicly is a russia buff?

This russia buff seem rdm at this point.

[Mitoe]

CHINA
- All "Honoured" upgrades cost increased to 350w 350c (from 300w 300c)
RUSSIA
- All "Veteran" upgrades cost decreased to 200w 100c (from 200w 200c)

When has this been discussed?
I am specially bothered by this because it completely destroys consistency between civilizations.
I made a comment long ago about fixing this issues, but I never thought that this patch would enhance them on purpose without a proper debate.

Hasn't been discussed yet. I fully intend all changes to be discussed, but currently Eaglemut is working on releasing a beta version soon, so I wanted to keep future changes to the patch notes to a minimum until he's completed it and we can begin testing things.

Most likely several changes will be removed/added/adjusted before the final version of the patch gets released.