Idea for Musks speed

[helln00]

I was just thinking about historically, line infantry battle can often be decided with an bayonet charge with soldiers trying to get into melee.

Given that musks have the same speed as skirms, that makes them liable to be kited off, with the exception of ashis which can close the distance with their 4.5 speed. From that I thought what if musk have 4.5 speed in melee mode.

It would in a sense simulate a bayonet charge allowing musk to close the distance towards other units to get into melee and make musk vs skirm a counterable situation with proper micro.

[dansil92]

I say we just go back to unpatched nilla and give all skirmishers 5 speed

[howlingwolfpaw]

hmm.... while I do not disagree in theory, speed is one of those characteristics in a unit that when changed even by a little can have huge impacts. Such as the Fulliser. If you get them to 6 speed they are just stupidly lame for the game. So if musket can now just run over the battle field and take some losses to then trade well in melee then muskets will pretty much kill everything except artillery, but even then could fare pretty well in mass vs a 5-600$ unit that will get like 2 shots off. That means they also take the place of halbs and pike units fully. Imagine Jannies on hand attack 4.5 speed. why would you even want them in range mode, except to counter goons? Muskets would dominate pretty much everything with good micro. Hence why Ashi are so good even compared to the stats. (and also have a very weak melee attack to counter balance this)

It does seem like an accurate thing because normally these lines of infantry formed a walking wall and did charge once a critical distance was reached. but to make this into a game with counters would have to make changes to skirms too and give them an extra melee multiplier or something vs HI. which would then also weaken melee heavy inf that are balanced to do that job.

For accuracy I think heavy cav should be able to attack and move at the same time. Its silly the horse has to stop and the swing hits but the unit is already too far, and then has to catch up again, but then if they could do that, then goons would need to be changed as well, as its the kiting ability that actually allows them to counter heavy cav, otherwise its kind of an even trade if they just stand there. and running and fighting would basically do the same thing for that match up. Perhaps a 1.5 attack bonus to units running away from an attacking cav would be better, as if you are running leaving your back exposed its pretty much death from a cav charge. But all too often the kiting ability can unbalance the effectiveness of the counter units.

For the cost muskets are the most balanced and versatile unit in the game. They are like the standard of all units to be measured. Like do we make measurements using an inch or 2.54 cm.... the actual distance is the same but its the numbers that change to relate it to. So a change to muskets effects the whole game I think.

[helln00]

I was thinking that this would only apply to standard musks since jans and sepoys have different designs with their much higher hp.

I do agree that speed is one of those things where a small change can lead to a big impact, with ashis being the prime example. I do think it has a lesser impact here because you have to change the formations of the units, instead of being able to just move and shoot like ashis and if you say have a slightly longer formation change animation like how art limber mode works, I think it can be balanced.

For the most part I think most civs will have better options available and some civs straight up dont have musks so the only one that will need a strong look at is brits

[howlingwolfpaw]

It might work out okish' since it requires extra micro, but now groups of muskets would be able to out flank and maneuver and take any battle or not from India or Otto.

It seems like a change that is not needed really, muskets are good for that they are.

[helln00]

I think its not that bad since a formation of melee musk could be badly countered by a formation of skrims + hand infantry (halbs, rods , dopps) all of which have 4.5 speed or more(or in the case of halbs should have).

Yeah its not a fully needed change I want to think about a way to spice up musk micro. We can also add a cooldown to the formation change just to make it a real lock in now or never kind of thing.

[howlingwolfpaw]

well a cool down has big implications for musket micro that need to switch to melee and range mode to counter cav raids to artillery or other purposes. skirms are meant to counter muskets and really to do so need to be able to be faster to get away because if they just stand there and muskets get within range can go either way. So if muskets can do decent in the attack move scenario and if they can out micro skirms too will have very little effective counters IMO.

I do hope aoe4 is balanced in ways that let units have special abilities, like a charge option, a whole separate feature from melee mode. Especially for heavy cavalry.

[Mitoe]

Disregarding the balance implications (because this would be quite an imbalanced change to the game), my problem with this is that managing your army would become so much more cumbersome. You'd have to constantly toggle your musks in and out of melee mode. You'll want to always be in melee mode when moving around the map outside of combat, you'll want to always be switching between melee and ranged inbetween volleys, you'll want to be consistently going back to your rax and switching new musks to melee mode while excluding your main mass of musks from that, etc. etc.

Plus, what becomes of pikemen then? Half of the reason you train them is because they are faster than muskets and can better defend raids, the other half being their siege damage.

[helln00]

I dont think it will affect pikes that much since they will still be .5 faster than the musk even when the musk are in melee.

LIke japan still have yamabushi with 5 speed and with all around 4.5 speed ashi instead of just melee and it works relatively ok. granted yamabushi are stronger pikes with range resist but given that regular pikes are cheaper and can be trained more easily I dont think the roles of pikes as anti cav will dimish that much.

Yeah the army management is cumbersome but its either that or making it an ability which doesnt really fit aoe 3.

Maybe this is more for aoe4 to consider with a fresher template

[Squamiger]

did you all see that game in the premier league tourney, where someone, I forget who (minimoult?) beat Kevinitalien's war wagon spam with ottos by just massing jans and then researching Incan roads + military drummers? that was insane. speedy musks, even just in melee mode, seems way too OP

[duckzilla]

The troll potential of speedy musks is infinite. I love German high speed Fusiliers. If they are available on Andes, you can get them to something around 8 speed. You can melee dragoons to death if you want to.

[helln00]

did you all see that game in the premier league tourney, where someone, I forget who (minimoult?) beat Kevinitalien's war wagon spam with ottos by just massing jans and then researching Incan roads + military drummers? that was insane. speedy musks, even just in melee mode, seems way too OP

That makes them like 5 speed jans which would be just completely ridiculous. But like I just think if 4.5 speed musk is too much I would love to see more advanced arsenal shennigans in games.

[aligator92]

What Mitoe said

[deleted_user]

The more reasonable decision would be to reduce ashi speed to 4.0

Change the Pavilion to boost to 4.5 when toggled to speed.

[princeofcarthage]

If you reduce ashi speed you would need to increase its attack and/or hp. Statistically it's one of the worst musk without speed. Only tomahawk is probably worse.

[deleted_user]

that's a good point

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you reduce ashi speed you would need to increase its attack and/or hp. Statistically it's one of the worst musk without speed. Only tomahawk is probably worse.

Tomas are insane in melee so it's close.

[princeofcarthage]

If you reduce ashi speed you would need to increase its attack and/or hp. Statistically it's one of the worst musk without speed. Only tomahawk is probably worse.

Tomas are insane in melee so it's close.

Game isn't really balanced around melee combat though, they only have 14 melee attack which is +1 from normal musk. Granted its -1 hit against huss but against skirm and other inf that is barely a difference.

[chronique]

Toma is the worst mousket of the game (without upg). The mele damage is barely relevent when your range damage and animation are so bad.

[dansil92]

Toma is the worst mousket of the game (without upg). The mele damage is barely relevent when your range damage and animation are so bad.

True, but you can triple card them in colonial so if they had crazy hp or ranged attack it would break so quick.

Tomas are pretty pitiful at range and aenna are so awkward idk how anyone can play iro colonial though, i wont even do it on RE patch

[[Armag] diarouga]

Toma is the worst mousket of the game (without upg). The mele damage is barely relevent when your range damage and animation are so bad.

True, but you can triple card them in colonial so if they had crazy hp or ranged attack it would break so quick.

Tomas are pretty pitiful at range and aenna are so awkward idk how anyone can play iro colonial though, i wont even do it on RE patch

Aenna are fast which makes them really good. And you have to keep in mind that they have +15% HP on the RE with the WC so they're actually good.

[dansil92]

Toma is the worst mousket of the game (without upg). The mele damage is barely relevent when your range damage and animation are so bad.

True, but you can triple card them in colonial so if they had crazy hp or ranged attack it would break so quick.

Tomas are pretty pitiful at range and aenna are so awkward idk how anyone can play iro colonial though, i wont even do it on RE patch

Aenna are fast which makes them really good. And you have to keep in mind that they have +15% HP on the RE with the WC so they're actually good.

the 5 speed is pretty solid, theyre tanky and great dps i want to like then i just... like my units to shoot When I right click lol

[chronique]

On RE toma have the same animation than mousket, you can rush in less than 5.30. On EP iro is still solide age 2 because of upg.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ye, EP nerfed tomas by changing their animation.

[princeofcarthage]

Ye, EP nerfed tomas by changing their animation.

serious or sarcastic?