EP 9.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

[Garja]

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Yeah i think the main problem was china getting fixed perfect crates vs random bad crates from others

wait what do you mean here?

If im not mistaken, people complained about old china fixed start vs random coin start from india or something bad like that, while if it was a wood start in this exemple, it was fine.... Right? If I dont remember things wrong, then just making current china have the exaxt same old fixed start in the current beta should be ok, without having to use ugly changes like 190w houses

yeah, that was an edge case where China benefitted. Thankfully, Zoi removed the +100c dynamic crate start. Now, the only time you get +100c is when you also get +100f crate with it (+100f, +100c total). Before EP7, China had a fixed start with +100w crate, so China could either be quite a bit worse off than the opponent (like when opponent get +100f +100w) or equal with them (like when opponent gets +100w) or somewhat ahead of them (like when the opponent gets just +100f).

The Beta China start isn't balanced because the opponent always gets the PERFECT start (+100f, +100w) while China gets just a mediocre one (+100w). That means the opponent is always overperforming, where previously it was a random chance to overperform, be at parity, or be somewhat behind. That's not to say the old way was better, because it was still shit, but it does mean that current China needs to be compensated for this comparatively subpar fixed crate start.

This explanation is kind of shit but I hope it makes sense.

With random crate China was not overperforming nor underperforming.

[Kawapasaka]

it was pretty huge, situationally

[Mr_Bramboy]

There are no way to buff china in age 2? Because this change seem weird and china need something to hold big stuff in age 2. There are no option to reduce the cost of army, or improve step rider hp?

Why would you buff China colonial when it's already above average?

Garja is the king of snuck premises.

[aaryngend]

Garja is the king of snuck premises.

FTFY

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

early macro as china in ep9 beta 3 was tough and now ive been making a village first and then chopping for a TP so i dont have to delay Northern refugees or get housed at 10/10. Meanwhile others civs age 1 are no brainers.

[chronique]

There are no way to buff china in age 2? Because this change seem weird and china need something to hold big stuff in age 2. There are no option to reduce the cost of army, or improve step rider hp?

Why would you buff China colonial when it's already above average?

Because you are the first i have read who said that.

And what about giving 300f 300w but nerf their age 3?

[jesus3]

China colonial is alright and tbh the best way to nerf China fortress is delaying it with the starting crates

[chris1089]

early macro as china in ep9 beta 3 was tough and now ive been making a village first and then chopping for a TP so i dont have to delay Northern refugees or get housed at 10/10. Meanwhile others civs age 1 are no brainers.

It's fine. You just idle 5 seconds if you don't get a treasure.

[deleted_user]

not very fun, that

[chris1089]

not very fun, that

Pretty sure it's better than delaying the tp.

[deleted_user]

not very fun, that, either

[chronique]

What good stuff china have in colonial? They don't seem better than spain colo for exemple.

[chris1089]

What good stuff china have in colonial? They don't seem better than spain colo for exemple.

I think they can age behind more easily.

[Colonel0tto]

What good stuff china have in colonial? They don't seem better than spain colo for exemple.

White Pagoda + Advanced monastery for 10 spammable disciples with 140 hp and 17 hand attack of course.

[harcha]

What good stuff china have in colonial? They don't seem better than spain colo for exemple.

I think they can age behind more easily.

1) They can age behind more easily.
2) They can get a huge bow pike mass much faster than other civs.
3) Their disciples convert your units.
They have very good early colonial but not much after that. They don't have the colonial longevity that is provided by the well rounded musketeer unit.

[Kaiserklein]

Also they have a fine eco (taking the summer palace into account) without having to ship vils. The extra card helps a lot in early colonial.
While spain kinda needs 700w because of no 400w age up, but also needs 5v because of their shitty eco. That means you won't have any scary mass early on unless you go sort of all in

[chronique]

But china can't realy spam xbow, most of the time you don't want 50/50 bow / pik and their cav are bad. But ok, maybe they are not bad as i think they are, i just can't remember a game won by china in age 2 ^^.

[harcha]

But china can't realy spam xbow, most of the time you don't want 50/50 bow / pik and their cav are bad. But ok, maybe they are not bad as i think they are, i just can't remember a game won by china in age 2 ^^.

They have 2 armies that include ckn, they have 2 armies that include anticav. I'd say they struggle much more with making steppe than ckn. But you wouldn't even want to mass steppe bcus they're just bad.

[Jets]

anticav+anti heavy inf batches, they counter the most spammeable units in colonial(huss, musk). They do pretty ok in colonial IMO.

[chronique]

Yes what i mean is, china can't play in age 2, and when they are forced to do it, it's most of the time a deleyed semi ff. That's what i think from my noobish knowledgle of that civ ^^

[Garja]

What good stuff china have in colonial? They don't seem better than spain colo for exemple.

China colonial is better than Spain one. Spain colo is meh. China colo scales well and it's close to Russia colo, except you have to micro a 4 unit combo.
Units are cheap and hard counter other units with specific multipliers. Eco is decent and it scales well because of exports and the wonder providing free units. Also resource consumption is evenly spread among food, wood and gold so that you deplete resources slower.

Most euro civ have an incomplete colonial combo because xbows don't do shit to make the combo any better than just musk huss. Xbow multiplier vs HI is bad so you can't force situations where you go mass RI and force the opponent into a cav switch (which is going to fail because you also have strong cav counter). Also xbows aren't cheap enough to trade well for the cost. Also euro civs don't have ranged cav so they don't counter cav nearly as efficiently as China does (especially after Mongolian scourge card).

Civs with better colonial units and better eco than China: Japan, India, Brits and Russia until very late colo.
Civs with better colonial units combo but worse eco than China: Iro, Aztecs, Sioux, Otto until a certain point, then cheaper units prevail.
All other civs have worse units and scale worse in colonial (civs like Fre/Ger/Spain do fine early and mid colo).

But china can't realy spam xbow, most of the time you don't want 50/50 bow / pik and their cav are bad. But ok, maybe they are not bad as i think they are, i just can't remember a game won by china in age 2 ^^.

China gets 6 units per batch (at a cheaper cost). So even tho you get pikes you still mass bows faster in the long run. And in a pure bow fight you can always put pikes in front in cover mode so they atleast account of extra HP. Also China have the choku+steppe army which means that if you go heavy on xbows they have a quick and cheap counter. If you then add anticav for steppes chokus get extra value because they have a better multiplier vs HI than xbows. And steppes also have 30% rr so they actually trade better than huss per cost even in pure RI fights. If both civs somehow have a complete combo then China still has cheaper units and an extra counter unit in Keshiks.
I've won several games with China in colonial even vs Brits. Even in the old Fan Patch era (where xbows were an actual unit) you would see China beating a civ like French in colonial.