EP 9.0.x Beta [RELEASED-LIVE]

[harcha]

i wholeheartedly believe that the balance implication of 10w is not worth the polluting of changelist

[Garja]

Anyway I also want to point out that this need for compromise because "300f 300w would be too strong, and 200f 300w might be too weak" is just another consequence of fixed crates.

[Rohbrot]

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No spain nerf?

Whats wrong with Spain?

Seem one of the stronger civs to me.

Over which sample have you come to this conclusion?

Mainly playing you to be fair. Seems a lot stronger than your port though.
Tbf it's mainly based off a game I played against Perez where age 2 went almost perfectly, I followed up and he already had Spanish gold and then held easily.
Iro and Brit seem stronger to me, but it could just be the match ups v french.

Why do you try to compare a top10 player (atm) with yourself xD

Because he messed up and I played well that game so it was competitive up till minute 8-9 or so.

Not saying u cant beat perez (everyone can win each other on ep if playing well)
If u say he messed up hard and u still lost, i would think u could have messed up hard also, after a great age2.

[pérez]

it is not irrelevant, idk if it is needed, but not irrelevant for sure, since 10 wood is 20 food which is like some secs faster age and some secs also faster summer palace batch.
Not super relevant neither but it has some seconds of snowball.

First of all aging a bit faster doesn't change jack shit. China could age at 5min and still do the same shit. Did you ever see H2O caring about aging super fast with any Asian civ? Those civs are just supposed to age that late (unless you do some very specific strat which usually emulates Euro civs). There are dozens of more important things than aging 10 secs faster with China.
Second, there are so many factors that affect age up time that the 10w is completely eclipsed. Just think about treasures or distances in resources around the TC. Also every single top player makes so many vill micro mistakes in age1. I already mentioned the no wood vill micro. Then there is the wonder placement micro. The goat killing micro. The fact that most of players don't even use the goat in age1 (and then focus so much on the aging up time, like I'm speachless).
I'ts practically an irrelevant change and not worth changin a simple rounded cost into a nonsense 190w.

The G spoke. It can help in no tp maps it is 20 wood and u age up earlier or if u wanna play some colo in no tp, it is not completely irrelevant, idk how relevant is that or how needed it was but not fully irrelevant.

[Rohbrot]

Spain is and will be a civ which counters some civs hard but gets countered hard by some civs also.

[harcha]

it is not irrelevant, idk if it is needed, but not irrelevant for sure, since 10 wood is 20 food which is like some secs faster age and some secs also faster summer palace batch.
Not super relevant neither but it has some seconds of snowball.

First of all aging a bit faster doesn't change jack shit. China could age at 5min and still do the same shit. Did you ever see H2O caring about aging super fast with any Asian civ? Those civs are just supposed to age that late (unless you do some very specific strat which usually emulates Euro civs). There are dozens of more important things than aging 10 secs faster with China.
Second, there are so many factors that affect age up time that the 10w is completely eclipsed. Just think about treasures or distances in resources around the TC. Also every single top player makes so many vill micro mistakes in age1. I already mentioned the no wood vill micro. Then there is the wonder placement micro. The goat killing micro. The fact that most of players don't even use the goat in age1 (and then focus so much on the aging up time, like I'm speachless).
I'ts practically an irrelevant change and not worth changin a simple rounded cost into a nonsense 190w.

The G spoke. It can help in no tp maps it is 20 wood and u age up earlier or if u wanna play some colo in no tp, it is not completely irrelevant, idk how relevant is that or how needed it was but not fully irrelevant.

I'd argue china was already stronger on no TP maps than on TP maps.

[dansil92]

Anyway I also want to point that this need for compromise because "300f 300w would be too strong, and 200f 300w might be too weak" is just another consequence of fixed crates.

Yes because it's much better than 50% of games being unplayable and the other 50% being too strong

[Garja]

I'ts better when 100% of games are playable.

[Cometk]

i wholeheartedly believe that the balance implication of 10w is not worth the polluting of changelist

whole concept of a changelist will be irrelevant with DE

[Hazza54321]

why does tp start china need a buff is my question

[Cometk]

why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

[Hazza54321]

why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

and china was one of the strongest civs in the previous patch so this disadvantage is somewhat warranted

[Cometk]

why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

and china was one of the strongest civs in the previous patch so this disadvantage is somewhat warranted

in the previous patch, china had the possibility of getting +100f where other civs also got one (a dynamic crate start) - it's not analogous at all, now that every other civ has the best possible start and china has a mediocre one

[Garja]

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why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

and china was one of the strongest civs in the previous patch so this disadvantage is somewhat warranted

now that every other civ has the best possible start and china has a mediocre one

ye, if only all civs could have the same extra crate...oh wait

[Cometk]

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why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

and china was one of the strongest civs in the previous patch so this disadvantage is somewhat warranted

now that every other civ has the best possible start and china has a mediocre one

ye, if only all civs could have the same extra crate...oh wait

china overperforming when they got +100f +100w dynamic crate was what people were complaining about

[chronique]

There are no way to buff china in age 2? Because this change seem weird and china need something to hold big stuff in age 2. There are no option to reduce the cost of army, or improve step rider hp?

[Garja]

Show hidden quotes

why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

and china was one of the strongest civs in the previous patch so this disadvantage is somewhat warranted

now that every other civ has the best possible start and china has a mediocre one

ye, if only all civs could have the same extra crate...oh wait

china overperforming when they got +100f +100w dynamic crate was what people were complaining about

Was it? To me China was perfectly fine matching the extra crate of other civs. The current situation seems more of a problem.

[Cometk]

Show hidden quotes

why does tp start china need a buff is my question

every other civ gets a TP and then +100f on top of that

and china was one of the strongest civs in the previous patch so this disadvantage is somewhat warranted

now that every other civ has the best possible start and china has a mediocre one

ye, if only all civs could have the same extra crate...oh wait

china overperforming when they got +100f +100w dynamic crate was what people were complaining about

Was it? To me China was perfectly fine matching the extra crate of other civs. The current situation seems more of a problem.

I'm inclined to agree, but a lot of people think otherwise.

[Garja]

There are no way to buff china in age 2? Because this change seem weird and china need something to hold big stuff in age 2. There are no option to reduce the cost of army, or improve step rider hp?

Why would you buff China colonial when it's already above average?

[lemmings121]

Yeah i think the main problem was china getting fixed perfect crates vs random bad crates from others, now that every civ has a good crate fixed (or other buffs to compensate the lack of it) it think china with fixed best crate makes more sence

[Cometk]

Yeah i think the main problem was china getting fixed perfect crates vs random bad crates from others

wait what do you mean here?

[lemmings121]

Yeah i think the main problem was china getting fixed perfect crates vs random bad crates from others

wait what do you mean here?

If im not mistaken, people complained about old china fixed start vs random coin start from india or something bad like that, while if it was a wood start in this exemple, it was fine.... Right? If I dont remember things wrong, then just making current china have the exaxt same old fixed start in the current beta should be ok, without having to use ugly changes like 190w houses

[dansil92]

There are no way to buff china in age 2? Because this change seem weird and china need something to hold big stuff in age 2. There are no option to reduce the cost of army, or improve step rider hp?

Why would you buff China colonial when it's already above average?

[Cometk]

Yeah i think the main problem was china getting fixed perfect crates vs random bad crates from others

wait what do you mean here?

If im not mistaken, people complained about old china fixed start vs random coin start from india or something bad like that, while if it was a wood start in this exemple, it was fine.... Right? If I dont remember things wrong, then just making current china have the exaxt same old fixed start in the current beta should be ok, without having to use ugly changes like 190w houses

yeah, that was an edge case where China benefitted. Thankfully, Zoi removed the +100c dynamic crate start. Now, the only time you get +100c is when you also get +100f crate with it (+100f, +100c total). Before EP7, China had a fixed start with +100w crate, so China could either be quite a bit worse off than the opponent (like when opponent get +100f +100w) or equal with them (like when opponent gets +100w) or somewhat ahead of them (like when the opponent gets just +100f).

The Beta China start isn't balanced because the opponent always gets the PERFECT start (+100f, +100w) while China gets just a mediocre one (+100w). That means the opponent is always overperforming, where previously it was a random chance to overperform, be at parity, or be somewhat behind. That's not to say the old way was better, because it was still shit, but it does mean that current China needs to be compensated for this comparatively subpar fixed crate start.

This explanation is kind of shit but I hope it makes sense.

[dansil92]

Aztec
- Coyote Runner hitpoints increased to 155 (from 150)

my 15 month old meme feels relevant again