just get rid of walls...

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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

Astaroth wrote:Still nobody has really made an argument for walls to be nerfed.

They are not (proven to be) OP.

They are not "too useful" (what does that even mean? Compared to what? Compared to their design, in which they were better than now? Compared to other age games, in which even palisade walls are more useful than in aoe3).

The only argument being made is really: "I don't like walls, so nerf them"
ofc there is an argument, it is because a few semi ff meta guys dont want it hahaha
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Snuden »

I remember when GUA used to wall heavily.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Snuden »

He used more wood on walls than on manors.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Astaroth wrote:Still nobody has really made an argument for walls to be nerfed.

They are not (proven to be) OP.

They are not "too useful" (what does that even mean? Compared to what? Compared to their design, in which they were better than now? Compared to other age games, in which even palisade walls are more useful than in aoe3).

The only argument being made is really: "I don't like walls, so nerf them"
Theres been plenty of arguments to why they can be too good. One as ryan said they lower the skill ceiling as they dont need any sorta mechanics to defend. This also results in less interaction with your opponent as you have to wait for a critical mass to break units behind a 50W wall, or just play nr15 and try to outboom with the entire map. Another would be after killing even just one unit from behind the wall its instantly paid off. Lastly would be theres no long range siege until fortress and even worse, the counter to bastion walls is in industrial, so you really have to commit to a push which usually results on the defender trading well.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

Plus walls can easily force your opponent to go lategame, and that sucks since the lategame is inherently very imbalanced in aoe3.
Also it doesn't have to be full layers of walls. Even a quick double wall segment can win you a fight you should lose, just because you have e.g 2 falcs. For the cost of 10w.

Anyway, as usual breeze will call all top players disagreeing with him semi ff bots because he has no arguments. So answering is kinda pointless.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by aaryngend »

Why is no one discussing what the devs actually suggested? Make ranged units unable to shoot over walls.
That's the most interesting change I ever read.

Another idea would be to have a build limit I guess. Outposts have them, so why not walls as well?
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

like even people who want to remove walls from aoe3 agree that walls arent broken anymore, just because kaiser is losing against kynesie shouldn't be the reason to nerf walls, he even forced zoi to implement warclub nerf after losing a few games to sioux lol. walls have 1.5k hp which is quite low and can easily be denied aswell, booming on EP overall is nerfed already and thus there is really no point at wasting time even discussing about it. out
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Re: just get rid of walls...

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Yeah booming on ep is much harder what with the cheaper tcs and way more resources. Arguments like these is why no one takes you seriously (the constant spamming of shite would be another).

Also hasnt kaiser beaten kynesie in almost every tournament series especially recently
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

whine more please because you are at the nirvana level of retardness now, ofcourse booming is harder with %50 worse walls, much less resources on water overall, just because tcs have 100wood discount or you don't mapscrew isn't working as your little brain thinks. booming is much harder on EP. I hope kaiser's balls taste good for you haha
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

are you being a dumb on purpose riotcok? you shouldn't even discuss in this topic as a MS, learn some aoe3 first before even jumping to balance discussions seriously.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Hazza54321 »

Lol
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

Lol
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by duckzilla »

breeze gatekeeping balancing like a pro
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Re: just get rid of walls...

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Post by Hazza54321 »

i think your mouth wouldnt be so big if you took kynesies and diarougas penis out of it every once in awhile.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

I was playing this game even before when you were begging for darwin's russian recs XD viewtopic.php?f=19&t=630&p=7548#p7548 you joined veni's bandwagon first then you decided that being an arrogant prick is rewarded on eso-c so let's be one! "let's spam some Lols to threads 5 times a day so people will think I'm actually cool" and now you are actually thinking that I need to suck someone's dick haha, not everyone is like you hazza.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by oxaloacetate »

deleted_user wrote:whine more please because you are at the nirvana level of retardness now, ofcourse booming is harder with %50 worse walls, much less resources on water overall, just because tcs have 100wood discount or you don't mapscrew isn't working as your little brain thinks. booming is much harder on EP. I hope kaiser's balls taste good for you haha
HAHAHAH!!!!! so funny
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah I've literally never lost to kynesie in tourney, and barely ever in ladder. His style isn't hard for me to beat, it's annoying though. I don't need walls to be nerfed for myself, it's just that they make the game less interesting, easier and more imbalanced.

Also the warclub thing wasn't a nerf, it was still a buff from RE? I just argued a cheap unit with almost rod speed shouldn't be buffed from 10 to 12 attack, so instead it was buffed to only 11 but got +3 siege. And we still see people going cetan/club all the time as Sioux atm, so you see, the unit is fine.

At the end of the day all breeze does is call much better players than him retarded, while trying to buff his playstyle, without giving a shit about balance. He's really only making it harder to balance ep. Just like he did in the ep discord, thank god he finally got kicked and we can try to have a discussion without this kid spamming nonsense in every channel.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Hazza54321 »

deleted_user wrote:I was playing this game even before when you were begging for darwin's russian recs XD viewtopic.php?f=19&t=630&p=7548#p7548 you joined veni's bandwagon first then you decided that being an arrogant prick is rewarded on eso-c so let's be one! "let's spam some Lols to threads 5 times a day so people will think I'm actually cool" and now you are actually thinking that I need to suck someone's dick haha, not everyone is like you hazza.
lol
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Re: just get rid of walls...

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Post by deleted_user »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah I've literally never lost to kynesie in tourney, and barely ever in ladder. His style isn't hard for me to beat, it's annoying though. I don't need walls to be nerfed for myself, it's just that they make the game less interesting, easier and more imbalanced.

Also the warclub thing wasn't a nerf, it was still a buff from RE? I just argued a cheap unit with almost rod speed shouldn't be buffed from 10 to 12 attack, so instead it was buffed to only 11 but got +3 siege. And we still see people going cetan/club all the time as Sioux atm, so you see, the unit is fine.

At the end of the day all breeze does is call much better players than him retarded, while trying to buff his playstyle, without giving a shit about balance. He's really only making it harder to balance ep. Just like he did in the ep discord, thank god he finally got kicked and we can try to have a discussion without this kid spamming nonsense in every channel.
"much better" dude you are fucking sad, get facts straight really, it's just a game :salt: and I never got kicked, it was rather you and hazza were being a idiot for blackmailing mitoe to not have me in EP team's discords, and to help balance of the game, I decided to help mitoe from private and that's all, you will see the upcoming water changes and can ask to mitoe who he got inspired of, honestly you, hazza and your circle-fanboys are just sad.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

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Post by knusch »

i'm happy with how this thread aged :biggrin:
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah much better, like there's literally 0% chance you ever win a tourney series vs hazza or me. Don't be delusional.

If you think it was just hazza and me complaining about you... There were at least 5 people. In fact the discord literally died after you joined, now that I joined back I see no one was answering you anymore. While before you joined, we used to have actual discussions.

No one even wanted you to join to begin with. The only reason you joined was because for whatever reason diarouga was the discord admin so he let you in. 90% of the changes you propose are horrible for the game, like the free HD for ports one. Anyway just a quick read of your posts in this thread should be enough for anyone to understand how you aren't capable of having a logical reasoning, let alone a constructive discussion.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote: No one even wanted you to join to begin with. The only reason you joined was because for whatever reason diarouga was the discord admin so he let you in. 90% of the changes you propose are horrible for the game, like the free HD for ports one.
I asked Mitoe, so that's not the "only reason". And to be fair, he suggested good changes regarding water.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

I didn't propose free HD for ports, it was mitoe. In fact i asked several times to revert it since it would potentially become too strong. you are bringing made up lies to show that you are right, honestly all these hypocrisy and lies are unbelievable.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

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Post by Riotcoke »

@deleted_user5 @Kaiserklein Grudge match pls :)
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Astaroth »

Hazza54321 wrote: Theres been plenty of arguments to why they can be too good. One as ryan said they lower the skill ceiling as they dont need any sorta mechanics to defend.
This might be true, but:

1. Is something "lowering the skill ceiling" (compared to what?) a reason to nerf it? Many things in aoe3 lower the skill ceiling, yet nobody wants to change them (e.g. no drop-off points, no delay for most units when shooting, units almost never missing/no ground attack etc.).

2. Is skill only about mechanics? Knowing how to defend, when and how to wall etc. are actually skills as well. I mean, there are plenty of players around pr 25-35 who would do anything to get a higher ranking. If walling was an easy way to do that, they would do it - yet on EP, only a handful of players even walls. This indicates there is some skill needed to do it properly.
This also results in less interaction with your opponent as you have to wait for a critical mass to break units behind a 50W wall, or just play nr15 and try to outboom with the entire map.
For one, even with walls there can be plenty of interaction. In most games, it is impossible to 100 % full-wall the map early on, meaning the walls grow over time. There is room for water action, raiding, sniping vills etc. I realize water battles are problematic, but then maybe the solution would be to balance them, not to make them impossible.

Also, turtling (i.e. "no interaction with the opponent") being an option and booming being the counter (what you call "nr15") seems to be a basic mechanic of RTS in general.

Why does every game have to be about full-on aggression and mechanics? Ultimately, this simply seems to boil down to personal preferences: many players in aoe3 want an aggressive, micro-based game, not a focus on macro, defense or turtling, regardless of whether it is OP or not. But this is not a "necessity", it's just preference.
Kaiserklein wrote:Plus walls can easily force your opponent to go lategame, and that sucks since the lategame is inherently very imbalanced in aoe3.
To be fair, if walls could reliably force games lategame and if there was nothing to do about it and if some civs were just inherently better there, then walls would be OP. But even you don't really argue that, do you?

I mean, you have counter strats for water/wall play and as far as I can tell they seem to be working fine. So I don't feel anyone can usually "force" his opponent to go lategame in most MU on most maps. Or even if the game does go lategame, he doesn't always win (otherwise Kynesie would win most games, yet he doesn't).
Also it doesn't have to be full layers of walls. Even a quick double wall segment can win you a fight you should lose, just because you have e.g 2 falcs. For the cost of 10w.
Even if that was true, why is it a problem? Many things decide a fight. Why should a fight exclusively be determined by (a) units involved and (b) micro? If someone does an on-the-fly wall to protect his falcs, shouldn't he be applauded for his decision making? Afaik basically nobody ever does that (wall segment to protect forward falcs), so either it isn't that good or it is very difficult to do (multi-tasking etc.). There are also counters to it, like the general counters to artillery-based compositions (as you know ofc).

Small things being fight-deciding are not a problem, but rather part of the game: why should positioning your units in a forest decide a fight you would lose, why should paying 100 coin to the opponent to rev your explo to snare the opponent decide a fight, why should 300 res MM decide a fight etc.

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