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No Flag Wuangaga
Lancer
Posts: 584

03 Nov 2015, 20:27

incog wrote:
gibson wrote:Being a high level player, I dont think you completely understand the mentality of the low level deccan players. Deccan is a unique map for several reasons. You start with extra crates, this means that any civ can start all vils on food and not have to deal with the complex macro of having to gather different resources in age I. Second, it has choke points that can be easily walled. This gives lower level players a sense of security, they can go full eco, build 3 town centers right next to each other within their walls and make mills and plantations without the fear that 40 musk will walk into their base, siege down their town centers, causing them to resign. Deccan also has an enormous amount of hunts, berries, and gold starting right around your base. Low level players love this, because it means they dont have to transition to mills and plantations as quickly. All these things come together to make the perfect map for a low level player. The reason they never play other maps is not because the other maps are unbalanced, but because they dont have chokes, start with extra resources, or have many resources in base. Even if you could get them on EP, they would continue to play deccan the exact same way, so the changes on EP wouldnt be relevant to them generally.
again though, that has to be boring. its like going to grocery shopping with a ferrari. AoE3 is so much more than one map and secure resources
If people can play the same civ or even strat for 1000+ games, they can play the same map too for sure.
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8855
Location: USA

03 Nov 2015, 20:35

incog wrote:
gibson wrote:Being a high level player, I dont think you completely understand the mentality of the low level deccan players. Deccan is a unique map for several reasons. You start with extra crates, this means that any civ can start all vils on food and not have to deal with the complex macro of having to gather different resources in age I. Second, it has choke points that can be easily walled. This gives lower level players a sense of security, they can go full eco, build 3 town centers right next to each other within their walls and make mills and plantations without the fear that 40 musk will walk into their base, siege down their town centers, causing them to resign. Deccan also has an enormous amount of hunts, berries, and gold starting right around your base. Low level players love this, because it means they dont have to transition to mills and plantations as quickly. All these things come together to make the perfect map for a low level player. The reason they never play other maps is not because the other maps are unbalanced, but because they dont have chokes, start with extra resources, or have many resources in base. Even if you could get them on EP, they would continue to play deccan the exact same way, so the changes on EP wouldnt be relevant to them generally.
again though, that has to be boring. its like going to grocery shopping with a ferrari. AoE3 is so much more than one map and secure resources
Not really, theres certainly much more variety than what piroshiki does.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

03 Nov 2015, 20:39

I play the same maps for 1000s of games aswell. I used to always play on siberia, then I switched to 100% High plains and Arkansas. Im not sure Id value the maps as much. And in terms of gameplay it hardly got any better.

You know, we have to be aware that reaching the 3v3 deccan players is extremely tough.
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France Kaiserklein
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03 Nov 2015, 21:06

We have to accept that a solid amount of players will never move on the FP. For the simple reason some don't even care about balance, and more importantly they don't try to improve. They just enjoy their routine in team games with their mates. That's why they will never move on the FP. However, we can try to attract more of the pr 20-25 players
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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Netherlands irr3alist
Dragoon
Donator 05
Posts: 200

03 Nov 2015, 23:05

There is such a huge disconnect... I dont even think its worth opening a thread. Theres only one person who gets it. Im saying literally that the focus should shift away from staying in ur bubble and towards mixing up levels with less flaming. Playing with a wide spread* is the way to become more inclusive. When was the last time you helped a sergeant or did a compstomp? Seeing my slow lt play inspires them to try harder. These people have worked their way through endless bootings till theyve reached lv 17. We should never be so callous to not help them and thereby reduce the decreasing fan base. And once they get lv. 25 should there not be games hosted by majors saying 1st lt up? You cant stay in an ivory tower and let the glory that is the fp trickle down onto the lt. mass. You need to mingle and show ur face around.

Being together with a 26+ in a 3v3 is a welcoming gesture to anyone entering that community.
You want fp adoption ? Then stop treating low ranks as useless nubs. Think more of creating a friendly, safe game environment than laming a weak player you can raid easily with 2 uhlan. That weak player might never try std maps again. So u had 4 vill kills and a 21 taunt but I lost a potential 100 games with that person. The fp has nothing to do with that but fp adoption comes forth out of that sense of community. Why do people play 3v3 random? Because they know i dont judge or (f)lame and boot a lot of people who do. I offer a consistent, friendly , safe and no drama, sync free game environment for many. I would love to offer a hackfree game as well.

You can still choose ego bashing competitive play and stay in the bubble. But take a good look at who's leaving this ugly graphics buggy game with flaming self stroking players and who's joining...not many have stood up to take veni's place?
I think we need to reduce level restrictions. 17-27 and 25-33 resulting in 2 gamegroups: serg + and 1st lt up
This will create more upward mobility.

I do care about hacks and a res rich
OASIS map would be able to switch more players.

*wide spread for ex I play aoe2 nomad 1500- 1700

in aoe3 lingo thats around serg--major
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United States of America _H2O
Retired Contributor
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Posts: 3262

03 Nov 2015, 23:47

You are correct about what you say. But I think your tone is not going to inspire people to do that.

It just takes having conversations with people and also as you said playing occasionally with lower ratings.

At the same time those games are more a nice thing you do rather than actually worth while. The gap is very large in 1v1 from 17-27. Team games is a bit of a different story. But still the gap between 17-25 is large.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
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03 Nov 2015, 23:47

We're kinda in a vicious circle: lower players don't want to play the ep because there's barely any playing the ep. In the end, everyone playing on the ep or everyone playing on the normal patch would basically yield just about the same result for them. The problem is that the difference between patches is so low, that there isn't as much incentive for anyone to put the effort in making the switch happen. So rather than sitting on a patch waiting hours for a game in which you get stomped by a higher level player, the lower players just stay on the normal patch, and rightfully so. You need to create reason for them to switch. I'm not even sure if there is a possibility to create enough reason to actually make them switch over. I literally have no idea how you'd do it. A 'maps that are basically deccan' mappool maybe? Maybe in the end we just need to buff every civ so that you can convince them by saying civ x is better? Maybe the cheating protection needs to be amazing, and the cheating at their level has to be rampant (we could ask our friend bpds for help lol)?
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

03 Nov 2015, 23:51

h2o wrote:You are correct about what you say. But I think your tone is not going to inspire people to do that.

It just takes having conversations with people and also as you said playing occasionally with lower ratings.

At the same time those games are more a nice thing you do rather than actually worth while. The gap is very large in 1v1 from 17-27. Team games is a bit of a different story. But still the gap between 17-25 is large.
The gap between 17 and 27 is too large. Ive played games with pr 17, not sure where I''d stand pr-wise, but those games are simply ugly. It''s hardly a game, its a shameless stomp. It''s like me playing vs you but much more hopeless. A pr 17 has like a 1% chance to win. That isn''t really much fun for the pr17 or the pr27. In team games you can kinda compensate for it by splitting the worse players up or something, but can''t do that in 1v1 unfortunately.

I do have some lower ranked Dutch friends via the clan, and I did notice they all switched to the esoc patch though. So I guess in theory it does work. But those are nice reasonable people that just don''t play that much. That can''t be said for all lower ranked players.
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United States of America Papist
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ESO: Papist

04 Nov 2015, 00:37

I am a pr 20 player. The day I see a game hosted by someone less than pr 25 is the day I'll switch over.

I had today off and logged on and off ESO all day. I did not see ONE game hosted by someone below captain. For me, getting bashed for the sake of 80f Port vils is nowhere near worth it.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
No Flag 88baronrojo88
Crossbow
Posts: 13

04 Nov 2015, 01:23

honestly , 90% of games is deccan 3vs3 , map for walling and eco booms . FP por this games is crazy because 80 food for port villagers and all dutch upgrades is OP. i don't want play whit this conditions whit my fav civ Spain loosing games like a noob against OP eco civs. although my micro is correct, if the enemy is a good player can not win the economic civilizations ( japan, france and british is a madness OP civs) in team games, and even more in FP buffed two economic civilizations that were very powerful in team games.and not buffed weak eco civs ( like Spain is terrible in team games where the economy is far more important than in 1v1) but i understand this is for 1vs1 games and FP is a great work. this games works better in 1vs1 in team games unfortunately for those who like to play 2v2 or 3v3 There is a lot of difference between civs.
Germany lordraphael
Jaeger
EWTNWC LAN SilverDonator 01
Posts: 2269

04 Nov 2015, 01:33

jerom wrote:We''re kinda in a vicious circle: lower players don''t want to play the ep because there''s barely any playing the ep. In the end, everyone playing on the ep or everyone playing on the normal patch would basically yield just about the same result for them. The problem is that the difference between patches is so low, that there isn''t as much incentive for anyone to put the effort in making the switch happen. So rather than sitting on a patch waiting hours for a game in which you get stomped by a higher level player, the lower players just stay on the normal patch, and rightfully so. You need to create reason for them to switch. I''m not even sure if there is a possibility to create enough reason to actually make them switch over. I literally have no idea how you''d do it. A ''maps that are basically deccan'' mappool maybe? Maybe in the end we just need to buff every civ so that you can convince them by saying civ x is better? Maybe the cheating protection needs to be amazing, and the cheating at their level has to be rampant (we could ask our friend bpds for help lol)?
yea im beginning to believe that we really should have done a small map pool consisting of deccan clones to give them a reason to switch over. U wont persuade with the new esoc team maps which are really good no doubt but just arent what 3v3 deccan noobs want
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
No Flag packers24
Crossbow
Posts: 28

04 Nov 2015, 01:54

The community as a whole is extremely based around PR which is causing this disconnect. If I were to play 1v1's all the time, I would certainly be a higher PR than I am (PR 21). I choose to play team games (3v3) because I enjoy it more' I enjoy being able to strategize with a team, and I think that the variety of combinations you see is more fun than 1v1. I don't really enjoy 3v3 deccan games, but it is hard to find people around my rank where people want to play other maps. Seeing as my favorite and best civ is Brits, many of the other maps have far too little hunts for me to play (when I want to play brits).

Also, the PR walls are the reason the community is so fragmented. I get kicked from 1lt/captain games, when I regularly beat 1lt/captains in 1v1. I think that people care way too much about rank in this game, which causes the large fragmented community that we see today. I really like someone elses suggestion of consolidating ranks (ex: 17 MS- 231lt). This would make the PR shaming less viable. Also, I see no reason why you cant make a few maps which have abundant resources, and include them in the patch. So what if people don't like to scavenge across the entire map during the first 9 minutes of play? I don't see why some people are so against certain styles of play. I am not talking about making deccan easy wall psuedo treaty maps, but adding maps with abundant resources could entice alot of the lower level players to switch over.

Additionally, I think that the majority of the community plays team games. When the patch is focused on 1v1 for tournament play, it is easy to see why it is not extraordinarily popular.
Netherlands irr3alist
Dragoon
Donator 05
Posts: 200

04 Nov 2015, 05:13

Ah he prev.poster is right and gets it. Before asking people to switch you should have built some sense of community and interlevel communication. And yes I am only talking about team games because it is fairly easy to find/host 1v1 on fp.

But H2o Im just being straightforward here. Ive given a roadmap and an option whilst fully aware that the greater majority enjoys flaming and noobcalling so much that a whole segment of the playerbase wont even dream of widening the level spread as previously mentioned: it wouldnt be fun to play with lower levels.
In this lies the crux. Im merely pointing out that putting down people for a period of 10 years does not immediately create a warm fuzzy feeling for new players or indeed helps anyone but the person at that very moment noobcalling someone Phish? :P

We should all invest and perhaps think on the simple system in aoe2 of 2 game levels Rooks and Experts with no noobcalling. Which could be serg + and Aiz's 1st lt up. The choice is literally losing PR or losing players IMO. unfair games are still games and out 1000 games perhaps 5% would be unfair in my experience. Well worth the trade I'd say.

H2O can you get an OASIS map added to the FP ? Or more high res maps.
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United States of America _H2O
Retired Contributor
Donator 06
Posts: 3262

04 Nov 2015, 07:54

We have a full set of work on our hands right now. I like the oasis idea. It's a map style we havnt seen yet in ESOC Maps. But we need to finish porting over the team maps before we move to making more maps.
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No Flag Hagi
Dragoon
Posts: 358

04 Nov 2015, 10:08

packers24 wrote:The community as a whole is extremely based around PR which is causing this disconnect. If I were to play 1v1''s all the time, I would certainly be a higher PR than I am (PR 21). I choose to play team games (3v3) because I enjoy it more' I enjoy being able to strategize with a team, and I think that the variety of combinations you see is more fun than 1v1. I don''t really enjoy 3v3 deccan games, but it is hard to find people around my rank where people want to play other maps. Seeing as my favorite and best civ is Brits, many of the other maps have far too little hunts for me to play (when I want to play brits).

Also, the PR walls are the reason the community is so fragmented. I get kicked from 1lt/captain games, when I regularly beat 1lt/captains in 1v1. I think that people care way too much about rank in this game, which causes the large fragmented community that we see today. I really like someone elses suggestion of consolidating ranks (ex: 17 MS- 231lt). This would make the PR shaming less viable. Also, I see no reason why you cant make a few maps which have abundant resources, and include them in the patch. So what if people don''t like to scavenge across the entire map during the first 9 minutes of play? I don''t see why some people are so against certain styles of play. I am not talking about making deccan easy wall psuedo treaty maps, but adding maps with abundant resources could entice alot of the lower level players to switch over.

Additionally, I think that the majority of the community plays team games. When the patch is focused on 1v1 for tournament play, it is easy to see why it is not extraordinarily popular.
Spot on.
3v3 Deccan players are like a different community. You need to give them what they want to switch over the EP.
The easiest would be to ask few of them what would be the ideal maps (better than Deccan). Giving them 5 maps Deccan style would probably be a good reason for them to download the EP.
If you have too much work right now, just ask them to make map themselves.
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8597
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Location: New_Sweland

04 Nov 2015, 12:27

I think your general message is good, Irr3alist, although I must say your rhetoric is rather contradictory to it. Furthermore, the foremost reason people don't enjoy playing against much lower-PR players is that it becomes (too) unfair. Packers24 also makes some great points. The problem is that we cannot force this on users (nor do we want to).

I would like to encourage all EP users to be friendly and helpful towards everyone, regardless of PR, and focus on being inclusive rather than exclusive. This is particularly important until the EP's playerbase becomes self-sustaining.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
Netherlands irr3alist
Dragoon
Donator 05
Posts: 200

04 Nov 2015, 13:01

Well said. That is actually the gist of things really. But someone (me) had had to describe the current situation for others (you) to rephrase it better. :)
No Flag packers24
Crossbow
Posts: 28

04 Nov 2015, 14:18

I don't even know if this is possible, but if you made the ranking system as follows, I think the community would be less pretentious about rank, and more games would be played.

PR 1-9 = Private
PR 10-17 = Sergeant
PT 18-26 = 2nd Lt
PR 27-30 = Captain
PR 31-36 = Colonel
PR 37+ = General

Yes, I understand some people think there is a large difference in skill between a PR 18 and a PR 26, but with the total player base this small already, adding these name barriers hampers the feeling of a unified community.

This combined with new team based maps, I'm sure the community would grow in size and the amount of games played would increase dramatically.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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04 Nov 2015, 14:23

1st, I doubt we can do that.
And then, that's not interesting at all, there's a huge skill difference between a or 18 and a pr26 lol
No Flag packers24
Crossbow
Posts: 28

04 Nov 2015, 14:49

diarouga wrote:1st, I doubt we can do that.
And then, that''s not interesting at all, there''s a huge skill difference between a or 18 and a pr26 lol
I understand there is' but why would it matter to you? Your observation about the huge skill difference between 18 and 26 is insinuating that they should not be the same rank-since they should not play together. I''ve had this same conversation with Corporals' you will never get better by playing people your own rank forever. Like I said, I am a PR21, and have played games against Aizamk before. Then I have people who are PR 23 kick me out of their games' part of the reason is because of that rationale. To have the community of 3,000 active players in 15 tiny different segments based on rank is not the most ideal scenario.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Location: France

04 Nov 2015, 15:04

packers24 wrote:
diarouga wrote:1st, I doubt we can do that.
And then, thats not interesting at all, theres a huge skill difference between a or 18 and a pr26 lol
I understand there is' but why would it matter to you? Your observation about the huge skill difference between 18 and 26 is insinuating that they should not be the same rank-since they should not play together. Ive had this same conversation with Corporals' you will never get better by playing people your own rank forever. Like I said, I am a PR21, and have played games against Aizamk before. Then I have people who are PR 23 kick me out of their games' part of the reason is because of that rationale. To have the community of 3,000 active players in 15 tiny different segments based on rank is not the most ideal scenario.
I totally agree that you should play vs people whore better than you to improve but imagine, youre a captain pr26 and youve the same rank as a MS, would you like it?
No Flag packers24
Crossbow
Posts: 28

04 Nov 2015, 15:13

diarouga wrote:
packers24 wrote:I understand there is' but why would it matter to you? Your observation about the huge skill difference between 18 and 26 is insinuating that they should not be the same rank-since they should not play together. Ive had this same conversation with Corporals' you will never get better by playing people your own rank forever. Like I said, I am a PR21, and have played games against Aizamk before. Then I have people who are PR 23 kick me out of their games' part of the reason is because of that rationale. To have the community of 3,000 active players in 15 tiny different segments based on rank is not the most ideal scenario.
I totally agree that you should play vs people whore better than you to improve but imagine, youre a captain pr26 and youve the same rank as a MS, would you like it?
I really couldnt care less about my rank. I play 2v2s with my friend who is a corporal most of the time. Usually, the only matches we can find are against 2 2lts. And we lose alot, but I play this game because I enjoy it, not because I care about rank.
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No Flag Wuangaga
Lancer
Posts: 584

04 Nov 2015, 17:14

papist wrote:I am a pr 20 player. The day I see a game hosted by someone less than pr 25 is the day I''ll switch over.

I had today off and logged on and off ESO all day. I did not see ONE game hosted by someone below captain. For me, getting bashed for the sake of 80f Port vils is nowhere near worth it.
There are some games being hosted under pr25 by me for example and i get to play mostly lt''s joining my games too.
I see and host these games mostly around 17-20 gmt and later on weekends, but that probably doesn''t fit the times you play.
Germany lordraphael
Jaeger
EWTNWC LAN SilverDonator 01
Posts: 2269

04 Nov 2015, 17:40

btw i want to point sth out here we are talking about how to persuade low level players to adopt the patch while a big number of higher ranked players have refused to switch over to EP so far. I also see various player whom i would consider EP players rather switch over to RE patch and play their games there than trying to persuade the others to come over to the EP. By doing this they create absolutly no incentive for RE players to start trying out the EP.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

04 Nov 2015, 18:47

lordraphael wrote:btw i want to point sth out here we are talking about how to persuade low level players to adopt the patch while a big number of higher ranked players have refused to switch over to EP so far. I also see various player whom i would consider EP players rather switch over to RE patch and play their games there than trying to persuade the others to come over to the EP. By doing this they create absolutly no incentive for RE players to start trying out the EP.
I thought there were basically none? That''s the more important part, making those scrubs switch over. In the end its a high level player patch made by high level players but also aimed at the high level players. To totally change up the patch to make it more succesful, could mean you stop achieving the original goal and thus don''t fix the original reason people wanted to make a patch. I guess what I am trying to say is that this patch was never meant to be adressed to the 3v3 deccan players. It''d be a pro if they''d also switch over, but with a 1v1 patch aimed at the better 1v1 players, I highly doubt that will be possible.

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