EP 1.2: A balance update

[Goodspeed]

Also lb are cheaper than skirms. Go into scenario editor and play 40 lb vs 36 skirm then talk.

[Rikikipu]

-germany : I wouldn't change ulhans stats, cause they aren't really cost effective atm, since cav is done for tanking. I would just change 3sw + 2 ulhans into 3sw only. Then the standard semi-ff is vulnerable to colonial push.
-china : I think the civ is fine atm, i remember seeing it in the tiers 3 of gs guide (end of 2014), and we can't say that they have benefit from the tp meta
-france : rather than deleting the scout snare, i would just nerf it (attack i guess)

-russia : seems ok.
-spain : doesn't need a buff i think, it's an average civ. Intersted to see missionaries buff tho
-iroquois : seems ok
-dutch : so so. I think, as Couprider stated, just reducing the bank cost would be ok. Also, i don't understand why everyone here thinks this civ should be played in fortress. I think this civ has been designed for a colonial play. You got boom options in colonial (banks) and skirmishers in colonial, and you age quite fast compared to other civs. Pikes seems to be bad, but with the 2 upgrades, they are really decent. Just sending 2 cards age 2 for upgrade is awkward.
Moreover, their fortress doesn't have anything special, except ruyters.

Late game fixes : nice.

Edit : I forgot. Can you also buff thebritish's posts in the next fan patch update please ? His posts are really under average, defo tiers 4.

[Darwin_]

I am absolutely in love with your changes for dutch. They are exactly what they need.

For French though, I think that they should not be nerfed, and instead they should be the model civ, in terms of balance. Every civ has at least 2 strats, and I think they should be able to do those two things to about the same effect as French.

I also really like the changes for Germany. All of these changes look right on the money, and I am really looking forward to seeing how they change future gameplay for the better!

[benj89]

most of the change sounds good, I'm pretty happy about it!
I would have questionned the fact to slightly change rods tho (make them viable in team game), and I just miss spain op xp from nilla. I believe that what's interesting about them is their fast shipment rate rather than the value of their shipment, especially if missionaries come into play - which sounds pretty cool. In the same dynamic how about doing smtg for sioux teepees? whether it'd be slight eco or military boost, idk.
cui should just stay as they are at least in fortress. slightly nerfed later like less hp, why not.
I also believe that nerfing ulhan stats rather than their shipment is good, but I'm not sure neither - should lead to more discussion.
good job overall

[Kaiserklein]

But, skirms are hard counter to longbowmens on nilla

No

[Mimsy for President]

@kaiserklein
Yes the reward part was totally personal. But if you look closely, I was agreeing with you on thouroughbreds (your last sentence).

Now regarding the sw shipment, it doesn't have to be better than 5v but rather equivalent. I'm not mikstaken if I say 5v is closer to 2sw+2 uhlans than 3sw+2uhlans or 3sw+1 uhlan. So as I said, 3sw is better regardless of the bonus you get with it.
Also, when you say "that we don't want to change." ; Who is "we" ? GS seems to agree with you but it doesn't necessarily mean that the whole EP crew does. Or does it ?

Either way, nerfing 3sw+2uhlans is, in my opinion, wiser than changing the uhlan stats

ps : thanks to you & britishmusketeer for the explanation about the colonial base scaling.

[thebritish]

But, skirms are hard counter to longbowmens on nilla

No

skirms have 2x multiplier vs all infantry on nilla (3x multiplier with AA upgrade)

[cedarfarms]

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

if u fight 10 skirm vs 10 musk u dont lose a single skirm, i dont wanna say this should be possible with lb also, but atleast u should win that fight, maybe u do, idk really, but its close i guess.

10 skirms is more or less 11 lbs, with your 22 range you will have like 7-8 lbs left when all musks are dead, it's not really close

longbows are perfectly fine and do not need to be adjusted imo. But 10 lb vs 10 musk even with yeomen working, would not result in 7-8 longbows being alive. It wouldnt even be close to that. In a stand and fight battle, i think maybe 3 lbs would survive. If the players are microing, the muskets will make out better because lbs animation is so awkward, that after 2-3 rounds of walking back and firing, all of the while the muskets would also have fired an event amount of shots, the muskets will be on top of the lb engaged in hand attack, and i think from here the muskets will win the engagement.

[Kaiserklein]

But, skirms are hard counter to longbowmens on nilla

No

skirms have 2x multiplier vs all infantry on nilla (3x multiplier with AA upgrade)

No

The changes are nice. Not sure about nerfing uhlans tho, I'd rather see shipments nerf (3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 uhlans 8 uhlans, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans for example)

if u fight 10 skirm vs 10 musk u dont lose a single skirm, i dont wanna say this should be possible with lb also, but atleast u should win that fight, maybe u do, idk really, but its close i guess.

10 skirms is more or less 11 lbs, with your 22 range you will have like 7-8 lbs left when all musks are dead, it's not really close

longbows are perfectly fine and do not need to be adjusted imo. But 10 lb vs 10 musk even with yeomen working, would not result in 7-8 longbows being alive. It wouldnt even be close to that. In a stand and fight battle, i think maybe 3 lbs would survive. If the players are microing, the muskets will make out better because lbs animation is so awkward, that after 2-3 rounds of walking back and firing, all of the while the muskets would also have fired an event amount of shots, the muskets will be on top of the lb engaged in hand attack, and i think from here the muskets will win the engagement.

With proper micro I'm pretty sure you have at least 7 lbs left

[_NiceKING_]

strelet's imperail upgrade should be buffed, no doubt.

215 Hp and 21 attack*3 vs HI=63 attack vs musks and they cost only 50 resources...
And you are even asking for a buff lol...

14 range is a little low for a skirmisher. +2 range would be ideal.

[_NiceKING_]

But, skirms are hard counter to longbowmens on nilla

No

skirms have 2x multiplier vs all infantry on nilla (3x multiplier with AA upgrade)

skirms have multiplier vs heavy infantry, not all infantries lol. Nilla is not an exception.

[thebritish]

Show hidden quotes

But, skirms are hard counter to longbowmens on nilla

No

skirms have 2x multiplier vs all infantry on nilla (3x multiplier with AA upgrade)

skirms have multiplier vs heavy infantry, not all infantries lol. Nilla is not an exception.

pls load nilla and check it by yourself...

[Hazza54321]

it says they do have x2 vs all infantry but it simply is not the case if you test it

[gibson]

it says they do have x2 vs all infantry but it simply is not the case if you test it

it's similar to when you pay an extra 100$ for a prostitute who is "basically a virgin" but than its like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. False fucking advertising.

[Cometk]

just tested it and FU hussars train in 4s and FU musk train in 10s. if you're considering a nerf to mass cavalry, put it just enough to reduce cav train time to somewhere around 7-10 seconds imo

[_NiceKING_]

Show hidden quotes

But, skirms are hard counter to longbowmens on nilla

skirms have 2x multiplier vs all infantry on nilla (3x multiplier with AA upgrade)

skirms have multiplier vs heavy infantry, not all infantries lol. Nilla is not an exception.

pls load nilla and check it by yourself...

<Unit id ='240' name ='Skirmisher'>
<DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>2.000000</DamageBonus>
<DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>

[Kaiserklein]

pls load nilla and check it by yourself...

Stupid, how can you say that while you didn't even yourself check lol. Amazing. It's written *2 vs infantry but it's not vs all infantry, just heavy infantry...

[PhalluS]

hi, i think its better to balance only 1,2 civ in a batch and the community will see how the changes works. after a balance patch by ES, the problem was often to many changes for a lot of civ's and it results in a new top civ.....

my suggestion:
germans: reduce ulan hitponits or attack or the traintime slightly
french: no nerv,
chinese: nerv their fortress
russians: no nerv
spain: shipment rate and shipment improvement
iroquois: sounds good
dutch: sounds good

lategame fixes? not necessary..

[zoom]

just tested it and FU hussars train in 4s and FU musk train in 10s. if you're considering a nerf to mass cavalry, put it just enough to reduce cav train time to somewhere around 7-10 seconds imo

Why should cavalry train faster than infantry?

[Mimsy for President]

it says they do have x2 vs all infantry but it simply is not the case if you test it

it's similar to when you pay an extra 100$ for a prostitute who is "basically a virgin" but than its like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. False fucking advertising.

This guy knows what he is talking about. I'd vote for him if it wasn't for me.

[momuuu]

just tested it and FU hussars train in 4s and FU musk train in 10s. if you're considering a nerf to mass cavalry, put it just enough to reduce cav train time to somewhere around 7-10 seconds imo

I'd asssume the goal would be to make cav train like infantry.

[Einfein]

Any plan to improve rodeleros? Spain can get quite a lot of them via shipments, but that doesn't make them a go-to option. Its an interesting unit that I would like to see used more.

[Kaiserklein]

Rods aren't bad, just situational. They do an amazing job at killing cav. It's just always the same problem, we usually want to avoid melee infantry, especially in fortress wars. The only buff I would enjoy for rods is a siege attack buff, because for some reason they don't have a normal HI siege attack. I guess they did that because they decided such a fast unit with high siege would be too OP to "raid" buildings, but I feel like rods need it

[deleted_user]

such a fast unit with high siege would be too OP

And yet they decided to make opris a thing.

[Cometk]

just tested it and FU hussars train in 4s and FU musk train in 10s. if you're considering a nerf to mass cavalry, put it just enough to reduce cav train time to somewhere around 7-10 seconds imo

Why should cavalry train faster than infantry?

part of the reason age 4 dragoon spam works in team games is because cav train too quickly relative to inf; it's easier to repopulate the board and fight pop-efficiently because of this. this is bad because cavalry-based compositions should generally be inferior to infantry-based ones. if cav were to train slower than they do now but just slightly faster than infantry, then they would function better as a compositional supplement but worse as a standalone composition

if you are to nerf cav train speed too hard then training them in the late-game becomes unviable. this would also negatively impact treaty. i think the nerf should be slight