EP 1.2: A balance update

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United States of America iCourt
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

It already should be?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by fei123456 »

longbow range -2, hp +10
tomahawk deal melee damage
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by thebritish »

Couprider wrote:longbow range -2, hp +10
tomahawk deal melee damage

+1
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by deuxballesman »

U know that's a nerf for lb right ?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by thebritish »

deuxballesman wrote:U know that's a nerf for lb right ?

i dont see how 2 less range will makes them worse compared to +10 health
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by yemshi »

I do.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by deuxballesman »

Iroquois' warhut bb costs 600w 600g (like a crazy lot) for +2 range. Ask yourself is +2 range good ? As a comparison the +10%hp upgrade in the arsenal costs 200w 200g which in the case of lbow is 9.5 which we'll round up to 10hp.
So 2 range 600w 600g or 10hp 200w 200g your pick
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Atomiswave »

iCourt wrote:Currently there are no plans to change the Spanish Economy. A Lancer change and an Unction change are what are being tested.


Ohhh, are we talking about 5 Lancer card? :D
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by deuxballesman »

5 lancers were op in nilla :-) I have to admit i hate sending colo units in fortress so the 5 huss is always a card I'd rather not send but the more stuff rule made it better than 4 lancers.

Time to send 5 lancers again !
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by lemmings121 »

Couprider wrote:longbow range -2, hp +10

uhmm I dont see reason for this, lbs are soo good/cool due to their range...

and yes, thats a nerf to the unit overall thebritish , but I wont even try to convince you further lol
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by forgrin »

deuxballesman wrote:5 lancers were op in nilla :-) I have to admit i hate sending colo units in fortress so the 5 huss is always a card I'd rather not send but the more stuff rule made it better than 4 lancers.

Time to send 5 lancers again !


Actually I'd say 4 vet lancers > 5 reg Huss in most situations. The veteran upgrade essentially makes it worth 5 since it's a 20% up, esp. Since lancers > Huss when micro'd correctly in a fight.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

iCourt wrote:Currently there are no plans to change the Spanish Economy. A Lancer change and an Unction change are what are being tested.

What is going to happen with the Russians age 3 shipments they need to get buffed so their Fortress age has some meaning...
They are really weak with following the age up....
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by iCourt »

The changes so far are minimal, nothing that I think will promote a good discussion yet. Granted we just started testing. There is a big nerf occurring elsewhere that could give Russia a huge indirect buff in fortress.

In my opinion, (This means we are not testing, just my personal opinion) Russia Age 3 is so terrible not because they can't semi FF, or have any reason to go Fortress. it's just their Fortress shipments are awful. 2 Falconets and 6 Opri are your only good options. 6 Cossack is a bad card, it really should be 7-8. The 5 Cavalry Archer card is bad compared to the 5 Dragoon card, it should be increased to 6 Cavalry Archers (This would boost the Ottomans as well). Their Musket and Halberdier cards are also probably needing a buff by 1-2 units each. Getting Fortress with Russia isn't hard, it's just currently it has so much less power than other civilizations.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by g06092 »

Russia has weak economy and an age up to Fotress makes their only economic bonus kick in even later. The weak economy makes them slower in everything. Several one-time only bufs like 2 musketeers, one more cossack and so on won't make almost any difference. What Russia needs is something that makes them get competitive earlier in Fortress (making them faster, give them some tempo). Russia is really good in Fortress at that point when they have Boyars, Veteran upgrades, Strelet and Cav combat and their units get really effective. By the time you have all these upgrades they have a decent economy too. The problem is those bonuses kick in too late for Russia to be competitive. By the time you catch up with vill count the resources on the map are at their end. If as Russia you send unit shipments you delay even more the time when Russia's bonuses start making significant difference. In Fortress Russia need to do 3 Veteran upgrades (or Church card and 1000w) for their units (not counting grenadiers). All their unit shipments are one of each different unit type and you generally don't want to use army without veteran upgrades because it's just 70% worth (and talking about cost effective units turns in nonsense). The only way you can give them tempo is with early economy bonus which I already discussed earlier in this thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5247&start=200
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by forgrin »

g06092 wrote:Russia has weak economy and an age up to Fotress makes their only economic bonus kick in even later. The weak economy makes them slower in everything. Several one-time only bufs like 2 musketeers, one more cossack and so on won't make almost any difference. What Russia needs is something that makes them get competitive earlier in Fortress (making them faster, give them some tempo). Russia is really good in Fortress at that point when they have Boyars, Veteran upgrades, Strelet and Cav combat and their units get really effective. By the time you have all these upgrades they have a decent economy too. The problem is those bonuses kick in too late for Russia to be competitive. By the time you catch up with vill count the resources on the map are at their end. If as Russia you send unit shipments you delay even more the time when Russia's bonuses start making significant difference. In Fortress Russia need to do 3 Veteran upgrades (or Church card and 1000w) for their units (not counting grenadiers). All their unit shipments are one of each different unit type and you generally don't want to use army without veteran upgrades because it's just 70% worth (and talking about cost effective units turns in nonsense). The only way you can give them tempo is with early economy bonus which I already discussed earlier in this thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5247&start=200


Why not just decrease the cost of the church tech to like, 600w?
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

iCourt wrote:The changes so far are minimal, nothing that I think will promote a good discussion yet. Granted we just started testing. There is a big nerf occurring elsewhere that could give Russia a huge indirect buff in fortress.

In my opinion, (This means we are not testing, just my personal opinion) Russia Age 3 is so terrible not because they can't semi FF, or have any reason to go Fortress. it's just their Fortress shipments are awful. 2 Falconets and 6 Opri are your only good options. 6 Cossack is a bad card, it really should be 7-8. The 5 Cavalry Archer card is bad compared to the 5 Dragoon card, it should be increased to 6 Cavalry Archers (This would boost the Ottomans as well). Their Musket and Halberdier cards are also probably needing a buff by 1-2 units each. Getting Fortress with Russia isn't hard, it's just currently it has so much less power than other civilizations.

Yes definately..
They should have 8 cossack shipment or even 9 and the muskets isnead of 11 to 13..
And you know the drill and for the halbs also..
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Garja »

Why not 15 coss shipment now that we are at it. Seriously, 6 coss is pretty much the same of 5 huss. 5 CA is about the same of 5 goons. 17 strels is about the same of 8 skirms. 6 opri is the equivalent of 5 vet cav of other civs (tho with a diffrent purpose) and 2 cannons = 2 cannons. Then there is 1000w, 1000g, 9manchu and royal mint + refrigeration. With 3 cards Russia get 3 full upped units (most civs need 4 cards to do that...when they can).
I think people are so wrong in judging the potential of Russia, a civ that on paper has exactly all the features that make a civ strong in 1v1.
Next patch Russia will be marginally buffed, while top civs such as Germans, French and China will be marginally nerfed. This should narrow the gap between them and Russia (and other UP civs), making stuff such as colonial timings more effective. Against everything else (ok maybe not otto on TP map) Russia already has chances of winning with a good build and the buffs of the next patch can only make things better for the civ.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by enjoy2play »

didnt read anything about this thread, but why does german have 9 uhlan and u say 9 cos is too much?
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N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by deuxballesman »

cause it's essentially a 6uhlans +3 bonus the result is strong but it's 6 uhlans like 6 coss
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by enjoy2play »

ah ok, so the 9 uhlan are just 6 uhlan, my fault.
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.
N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by medinos »

Yes but Uhlan are a stronger unit We are talking about COSSACKS....
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by enjoy2play »

both cost 150 ressources
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.
N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Garja »

medinos wrote:Yes but Uhlan are a stronger unit We are talking about COSSACKS....

Vet cossack: 270hp, 31 attack. 75f 75g, 1 pop.
Vet ulhan: 228hp, 44 attack. 50f 100g, 2 pop.
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Kaiserklein »

enjoy2play wrote:didnt read anything about this thread, but why does german have 9 uhlan and u say 9 cos is too much?

Because the 3 free uhlans you get in that shipment are the civ bonus... It's like saying every civ should have 600w + 1 vil because india has it. Also 10% slower shipment so arguably not exactly a 9 uhlans shipment
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Re: EP 1.2: A balance update

Post by Jaeger »

iCourt wrote:Currently there are no plans to change the Spanish Economy. A Lancer change and an Unction change are what are being tested.


Can you give us any more specific details? I don't see anything wrong with lancers atm, but if anything I would like to see them have more hp; although still if we're gonna go with unit buffs my ideal change would be a small buff to rod attack

And for unction I'm guessing that you will make the card also reduce the cost of missionaries? I think it would be very difficult to balance unction.
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