Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

[zoom]

My suggestion:

– Bank (base) build-limit increased from 4 to 5. Cost decreased from 350f, 350w to 325f, 325w (bounties standardized accordingly from 70xp to 130xp (build) and 140xp to 260xp (kill)).
– "4 Settlers" home-city shipment increased to 5 Settlers.
– "4 Hussars" home-city shipment increased to 5 Hussars.
– "Bank of Amsterdam" and "Bank of Rotterdam" home-city shipments both increased from +1 to +2 Bank build-limit.
– "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment increased from 15% to 25%.
– "Coffee Trade" unique-church improvement now instead increases Bank build-limit by 1 and Settler movement speed & (all) work rates by 5%.

[666_X]

hm maybe coffe trade 15% but other than that I can agree

[zoom]

It's just one part of a Colonial Age shipment, and it's important to keep Dutch economy from scaling too well in the end-game.

[momuuu]

And then build limit 4? Doesnt really matter too much just making sure. I dont dislike it but might be strong.

[Atomiswave]

@Jerom

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What age 3 unit shipment buffs do you suggest?

[forgrin]

My suggestion:

– 100 wood added to starting crates.
– Bank bounties standardized from 70xp to 140xp (build) and 140xp to 280xp (kill).
– "4 Settlers" home-city shipment increased to 5 Settlers.
– "4 Hussars" home-city shipment increased to 5 Hussars.
– "Bank of Amsterdam" and "Bank of Rotterdam" home-city shipments both increased from +1 to +2 Bank build-limit.
– "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment increased from 15% to 30%.
– "Coffee Trade" unique-church improvement now simply increases Bank auto-gathering rate by 10%.

Dutch would probably take a TP then I think.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, they could be too strong with an early tp, anyway, it's against their design.

[momuuu]

@Jerom

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What age 3 unit shipment buffs do you suggest?

Im not sure it'd change much tbh since Dutch isn't a quick civ (like spain). 100 resources more or less in the midgame isn't going to make or break the civ. But if any, I'd do 4 huss -> 5 huss.

I fear Dutch is structurally too weak. It's kinda like japan: over time people will learn how to play against it and the civ will get weaker. They've always been very underplayed (only mitoe and lordrahpael really play dutch at the top level, and I'm one of the few midlevel players playing them) so people probably dont fully know how to punish dutch. I spoke to mitoe about it earlier, and we kinda agreed that people don't really know how to punish greed from Dutch players. He's possibly even greedier than I am, because even the high level players don't capitalize on it. There's so many things I do where I know that I should just die if my opponents knew what they were doing. But they tend not to so it works.

If you buff Dutch atm and people start playing them more, then I forsee a Japan scenario unfolding where they don't actually get better. I feel like Dutch is still pretty overrated, theres one thing they're pretty decent at: eco semi-ffs. But civs like France can arguably do it even better. And they have nothing else going for them, they can only really do that one thing.

[zoom]

And then build limit 4? Doesnt really matter too much just making sure. I dont dislike it but might be strong.

You could just hold off on the 100w, although I don't see Dutch with these changes and no 100w being above average. The point is that one more starting Settler has a major impact.

[Atomiswave]

@Jerom

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I am surprised you didn't suggest 7-8 ruyter along with 5 huss. Also, you sound so pessimistic, like Dutch is beyond repair. There are so many options which can further strengthen Dutch. Bank cost reduction is good idea....

[momuuu]

@Jerom

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I am surprised you didn't suggest 7-8 ruyter along with 5 huss. Also, you sound so pessimistic, like Dutch is beyond repair. There are so many options which can further strengthen Dutch. Bank cost reduction is good idea....

I dont mind 7 ruyters that much. 7 -> 8 ruyters and 4 -> 5 hussars give dutch 5 top notch unit shipments, as well as two of the best unit improvement cards in age 3, also inclduing 1000f/w/g, royal mint and food silos, black riders and swiss pikemen (which are okay merc shipments). That's insanely good. It's already pretty good with 3 good unit shipments, 2 acceptable ones and the best unit upgrade cards.

The reason I'm pessimistic is that I've been playing this civ ever since they were shitty and have grown extremely annoyed by it. All I want is for them to actually be good, competitive and a worthy tournament civ (which they really are not given that there's at least 3 extreme counters). I'm also sad that buffing them slightly is probably not even going to change a thing for the mentioned reasons.

[momuuu]

And then build limit 4? Doesnt really matter too much just making sure. I dont dislike it but might be strong.

You could just hold off on the 100w, although I don't see Dutch with these changes and no 100w being above average. The point is that one more starting Settler has a major impact.

Why 4 settlers -> 5 settlers? Would that be used in the first place?

[Atomiswave]

@Jerom

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Ok, i get your point, but if you were patch author how would you "fix" Dutch?

[momuuu]

1) Nerf TPs and stagecoach in particular
2) one of the following two depending on how change 1) works out:
- +100w
- 7 starting villagers, -100c
3) 4 hussars -> 5 hussars
4) Bank wagon cards to +2 bank limit
5) Coffee trade (Church card) and tullip speculation changed to affect banks to such degree that Dutch have a competitive imperial eco. Possibly make the imperial upgrade affect banks or increase the villager limit. Although the latter isn't the prettiest in terms of the design, it might be the easiest and most succesful one to achieve the goal of making their lategame normal.
6) Bank XP to potentially be standardized, or to be in the state of EP1.0, depending on how big change 1-3 are.

[zoom]

And then build limit 4? Doesnt really matter too much just making sure. I dont dislike it but might be strong.

You could just hold off on the 100w, although I don't see Dutch with these changes and no 100w being above average. The point is that one more starting Settler has a major impact.

Why 4 settlers -> 5 settlers? Would that be used in the first place?

Not sure. I'm sure it could though, unlike now.

[Atomiswave]

@Jerom

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Like i anticipated, pretty radical changes. I doubt they will ever be implemented withing the scope of ep. At the end we all have to accept the fact that there will always be counter civ factor(i hope not so extreme like before) and two tiers of civs at best.

[momuuu]

Why do you think I am pessimistic? It might not even be possible to realistically fix dutch since their strength varies extremely in different match ups. It goes from 'this match up is -10pr, literally' to 'I am actually pretty favored here'.

[Atomiswave]

@Jerom

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It's not just you, look at the results, it coincided with your opinion about Dutch. Right now they are almost at the bottom.

[IP Man]

The only to fix and balance Dutch is to make the Caputol upgrade affect banks too (50% buff), but make their max pop 150. No, this will be good too because 150 pop space minus 50 vills =100pop space for military.

[momuuu]

yeah that's ridiculous. In normal 1v1s you'll only have 120 military pop or so with vills while your opponent has 180. That actually happens sometimes too. Its also very ugly in terms of design. Increasing villager build limit is much more efficient.

[IP Man]

yeah that's ridiculous. In normal 1v1s you'll only have 120 military pop or so with vills while your opponent has 180. That actually happens sometimes too. Its also very ugly in terms of design. Increasing villager build limit is much more efficient.

Alot of people say increasing the villager limit is against the civ design, so just make banks better and still make them have 100 pop for military (150 if they delete all vills, unlike now where they have 150 pop for military with 75+ vills)

[Mitoe]

I notice you guys are discussing this in public forums.

This is because I'm no longer a part of the EP team. I can't test the changes, and I disagree with a lot of the members on the team and their suggestions for changes, so I decided there's not much point.

They won't be good in 1v1, that's for sure but we don't want to change the "tiers", that's why fre and ger are almost not nerfed.

What? So you're saying we're not interested in balance? Cool.

About Dutch level, compared to lets say French, the MU is not even broken as people are assuming. Most of times it comes down to the 2 falc shipment rather than anything else.

Dutch vs French is an unwinnable matchup for Dutch. French just does everything better at every point in the game. Cav semi? Stronger. Boom? Stronger. Age 2? Stronger. Map control? More easily acquired. France can all in age 2 to win, or just semi-FF with TPs and map control and win super easily.

The way to play against Dutch as basically any civ that no one understands is simple:

- Play age 2, grab TPs and be greedy while making units.
- Try to force them to commit to a longer age 2 and something like an 8 pike shipment or minutemen pop. Continue making units. If they commit to full Colonial, you have a big advantage over their awkward unit composition. Cavalry will give Dutch nightmares in age 2.
- If they go for an age up, just push them hard while they're aging or just after they age. You can try to kill some houses, force idle time, kill villagers, etc. but this isn't your main goal: your main goal is to deny them that 1000w shipment and force something like 9 ruyter or 8 skirm. Dutch is extremely weak if they're not able to get a 1000w card out first or second in early age 3. There's no need to stay in their base once you've denied this, just leave and age.
- You'll outscale them hard in mid fortress if you've done all of this: you have map control, an equal (if not stronger) economy, maybe even a full TP line with stagecoach, and depending on your civ you likely have access to more potent unit compositions or shipments. Not to mention your lategame is likely better than Dutch.

This is exactly how H2O and I played France vs Dutch in the tournament, and Dutch (although not perfectly played IMO) never had any hope of winning either of those games. Take a look at the recs or casts:

http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=4938
https://youtu.be/kurK10d3S3U?t=50m47s

http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=5267
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXJ4RMcQLh4&index=4&list=PL4DwBHWnAJtTN9VZI_7YIP9ObLeA7SsSp

This is how all of Dutch's matchups should go:

France: unwinnable
German: unwinnable
Spain: unwinnable
China: 60/40 in favour of China
Japan: 60/40 in favour of Japan
India: 55/45 in favour of India
Portuguese: Map dependent? Likely Port favoured or even unwinnable on certain maps. Just play similarly to France.
British: 70/30 in favour of British
Aztec: unwinnable
Iroquois: 70/30 in favour of Dutch (granted, Iro are super weak atm)
Russia: Unsure, probably slightly in favour of Russia
Ottoman: ???
Sioux: ???

[momuuu]

This topic makes me salty on its own. Its not unwinnable vs france though, and otto/india/sioux are at least okay match ups

[Jaeger]

What about removing the negative multiplier vs cav for colo skirms and adding it with the vet upgrade?

[Mitoe]

I'd rather not break the unit counter system

I really think they just need something like an extra vill in age 1 or slightly cheaper banks to make them viable.