Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
Location: Boston

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Darwin_ »

Dutch only beat sioux outright, and do OK against brits. They also dont suck against India. But every other matchup is unbalanced IMO.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

IP Man wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think I am also just about the only full time Dutch player, and I've always been very positive about their match ups in the past. The fact of the matter is that everything they can try can be done significantly better by France or Germany in the same way. Theres no point to play dutch. They don't counter any civ better than other civs do, and they're not a solid first tournament pick because they have 3 unwinnable match ups and another 4 extremely hard match ups.

Im not defending that they are not OP. I'm simply complaining about the fact that they are UP in 1v1 which is something else. I'm actually exceptionally annoyed by the state of my favorite civ and it is the number one cause for me to stop playing the game for a while, which happens quite frequently.

lol, they have way better eco than French and German.
They have 3 vills shipment in age 1 (french gets 3.25, german gets 4), they make 1 bank before they age (thats 3.4 vills if PM are researched), and then they send bank wagon which is another 3.4 vills (ferench gets 5 vills, german gets 6 vills.
In total they have:
Dutch: 9.8 vills
French: 8.25 vills
German: 10 vills.
before Dutch ages, they will make their third bank which is another 3.4 vills, and lets not forget that Dutch is getting xp for all those banks which will give them an extra shiment by the time they age while French and German are dependant on tps.

Its nice to theorycraft and collect some very mediocre numbers that are generally not applicable, but in practice france definitely outgathers Dutch and Germany might outgather then plus they also have twice your units at almost any point in the game.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

Darwin_ wrote:Dutch only beat sioux outright, and do OK against brits. They also dont suck against India. But every other matchup is unbalanced IMO.

Dutch do not beat brits, thats a pretty awful match up. Sioux is okay, although in current sioux state Dutch is probably one of their better match ups (im not even sure how dutch would win that outright). India, Iro and Ports are match ups I'd be okay with. Otto doesn't suck as much to play against, probably one of their better match ups, relatively, on RE. Germany is not only unbeatable because they are OP, Germany also absolutely rape dutch in practice. That match up is so not close that it's not even fun anymore. Mitoe told me he struggles vs 1st lts when he plays that match up lol, if you ever lose that you should consider deleting your aoe3 account tbh. Spain and Aztec are impossible to win in the sense that Dutch don't have anything going for them in both match ups and are too slow otherwise to get anything done.

IP Man wrote:
yemshi wrote:As far as I see they have decent chances against Brits/Ports/Sioux/Russia/ maybe Iro and loose to the rest. That is okayish if not bad.

currently they beat brits/ports/russia/ azzy (maybe?) and india. they have hard time vs otto, japan and sioux, but it is in dutch favor. they are 50/50 vs french, and they just lose vs china, german

so yeah, Brits and Aztec are terrible match ups. Japan in Dutch favor please. 50/50 against france but you jsut lose against China. It's against my morals to ask, but what pr are you even? Almost every assesment you make seems wrong to me.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

yemshi wrote:Need the great MU-table of Jerom again.
And @diarouga

France 40-45% depending on amount of TPs
Germany 1% fuck this mu, realistically maybe 20%
Spain 35% you're too slow
Aztec 30% just dont play it you're too slow
British 45% I'm hesitating to give it 40%. When I play Brit vs dutch it feels super favored for me, but others make it seem like a 45% mu.
Japan 45% not terrible but shitty nonetheless, Im not that great at the mu
Otto 45% otto FF still beats you I think, Jan huss timing hasn't been nerfed much and was a great way to play too
China 45% they have more stuff at any point in the game and you have to outmicro to win
Sioux 50% this is barely 50%, this is probably one of the best mu's sioux has as they kinda suck I think
India 50% unless TP india is as good as it seems to me, then india wins on maps like HP
Russia 50% if you know exactly what they are doing its better but they have multiple viable playstyles that both beat you if you dont prepare appropriately
Ports 55% this is maybe the best match up, maybe its 60% I'm not sure
Iro 60% iro sux and loses to basically everything right now

Great civ indeed.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Dsy »

Yeah Jerom is pretty close to the real chances. But the main point is EP changes doesnt effect these except the xp for bank one. So its badly balanced and in team they became OP.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

Dsy wrote:Yeah Jerom is pretty close to the real chances. But the main point is EP changes doesnt effect these except the xp for bank one. So its badly balanced and in team they became OP.

Well I think the lategame fix is pretty good. I don't really play dutch in 3v3 anymore on RE because I dislike how shitty your lategame is. Unfortunately that made the midgame of Dutch, their strong point already, skyrocket into OPness.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Dsy »

I dont think 8 bank is bad lategame. Dont like the church unit slow effect though.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

8 bank is bad lategame if you consider that's three eco cards you're missing out on. That could have been 35% extra mill gathering on 100 vills and 15% extra plantation gathering for example. Take your 8 banks and give me that, it'd be delightful.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Dsy »

I think dutch totally destroy you before could change plantation if you let it boom. Plus they have +50 millitary slots and banks are unraidable.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

Dsy wrote:I think dutch totally destroy you before could change plantation if you let it boom. Plus they have +50 millitary slots and banks are unraidable.

In 1v1 lategame doesnt happen, and if it does they can make extra tc which sucks for you still.

In team this is actually a realistic scenario.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by gibson »

At least theoretically Dutch should beat China in 1v1. You can be up at a similar time with close to 2x china's eco and can support production from 3 or 4 military structures
User avatar
India _DB_
Howdah
Posts: 1787
Joined: May 20, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by _DB_ »

Dutch dont beat china unless you are mitoe, just like you dont beat china with ports unless you are aiz

Dutch is simply spain without fast age and fast shipments and relatively weaker age 3 shipments.

Make skirm pike? Spain can do same thing with 2 cannons earlier than you. wtf

Make skirm huss pike? dont work, pike sux, you lose to same thing mixed with musk lol (for e.g russia)

Cannons? they dont have cannon shipment, neither 5 huss, and making cannons yourself is never easy..., you have to spend 300w on foundry + 1000 resources for making 2 cannons and still wait more than 2 minutes at cost of not making units.

special unit? cuirassier? yumi archer? they dont even have musk lol

banks? japan can still make shrines and get an eco for less investments, and with the 6 bank limit, its better ofc, but there are not a lot of games where you achieve it imo, while you can max out shrines on most good maps and still have first class units

ruyters? cheap, not lame, but 10% resists wtf they sux a bit, need fix 7 ruyter shipment to better???

skirms in age 2? okk, the only thing good about dutch. So germany still beats you and they dont have musk neither skirm in age 2 and a bit worse eco... wtf

Dutch dont need buff, they need option.
Doing what you like is Freedom...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
User avatar
Greece BrookG
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2009
Joined: Feb 21, 2016
ESO: BrookG
Location: Thessaloniki

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by BrookG »

In a different post there was a discussion about introducing halbs on age 2. Only this might boost their age 2, so improve their options
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

"mr.brookg go buy jeans and goto the club with somppuli" - Princeofkabul, July 2018
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Dsy »

You can beat any civ except azzy and german.
Compare a civ to spain is funny. Spain is the weakest civ in the game. Only piro ff viable strat with it and thats an all in...
User avatar
Great Britain britishmusketeer
Howdah
Posts: 1845
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by britishmusketeer »

Dsy wrote: 4 bank dutch already strong lategame.
dutch is actually the 2nd weakest civ in the lategame.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Dsy »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Dsy wrote: 4 bank dutch already strong lategame.
dutch is actually the 2nd weakest civ in the lategame.


Ok im wiser now. :wood: :wood: :food: :food: :food: :coin: :coin:
User avatar
Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1303
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by yurashic »

Jerom wrote:
yemshi wrote:Need the great MU-table of Jerom again.
And @diarouga

France 40-45% depending on amount of TPs Dutch should lose this much harder than you are saying here. Especially with many trading posts on the map.
Germany 1% fuck this mu, realistically maybe 20%
Spain 35% you're too slow
Aztec 30% just dont play it you're too slow
British 45% I'm hesitating to give it 40%. When I play Brit vs dutch it feels super favored for me, but others make it seem like a 45% mu. British beat Dutch much harder than Germany does. Ruyters and skirmishers do ok against uhlans but lose very hard to longbows.
Japan 45% not terrible but shitty nonetheless, Im not that great at the mu
Otto 45% otto FF still beats you I think, Jan huss timing hasn't been nerfed much and was a great way to play too Dutch should beat FF no problem with ruyter spam but jan/abus on a normal map is very strong against Dutch.
China 45% they have more stuff at any point in the game and you have to outmicro to win Don't make any units in age 2 and build a trading post. Make only skirmishers and ruyters and you win in the long run if you play safe, do not die early and do not suicide on iron troops.
Sioux 50% this is barely 50%, this is probably one of the best mu's sioux has as they kinda suck I think
India 50% unless TP india is as good as it seems to me, then india wins on maps like HP
Russia 50% if you know exactly what they are doing its better but they have multiple viable playstyles that both beat you if you dont prepare appropriately
Ports 55% this is maybe the best match up, maybe its 60% I'm not sure
Iro 60% iro sux and loses to basically everything right now

Great civ indeed.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

I do that china thing you say but it still doesn't feel good.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by zoom »

Let's do it right!

Dutch will likely see some changes in the next iteration of EP, which we hope to release very soon.
User avatar
Germany yemshi
Jaeger
Posts: 2311
Joined: Jun 3, 2015
ESO: yemshi
Location: Germany

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by yemshi »

Dsy wrote:You can beat any civ except azzy and german.
Compare a civ to spain is funny. Spain is the weakest civ in the game. Only piro ff viable strat with it and thats an all in...

Spain is another hardcounter btw.
User avatar
India _DB_
Howdah
Posts: 1787
Joined: May 20, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by _DB_ »

Lol spain is not the weakest civ, its probably better than dutch and ports

Spain does well vs variety of civs like Japan, India, Russia, Ports, Iro, Dutch and even china and germany

Spain only lose to french, otto, sioux and aztecs

piroshiki ff is not viable according to gods, so forget about it.

While Dutch loses to almost all civs except iro, india. They have hard time vs sioux and russia too.
Doing what you like is Freedom...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by Dsy »

Spain is overrated. Only piro ff viable. Maybe advanced tp boom is the other you can play with. Or colo but thats not strong.
So its 1 strat civ. Do piro ff all in. You can win vs unprepared opponents though.
Spain has chance maybe only vs russia in the list you mentioned. But russia can win that mu too. All other you mentioned not spain favoured at all.
User avatar
Germany yemshi
Jaeger
Posts: 2311
Joined: Jun 3, 2015
ESO: yemshi
Location: Germany

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by yemshi »

Spain is way much better than you think. Not very good but they can handle quite some civs.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by momuuu »

Regardless of if spain is good or not (I think their normal ff is quite potent, and the atp build seems to be good too) what I know for sure is that they are great against dutch. Its personally the match up Id like to avoid the most.
User avatar
Germany yemshi
Jaeger
Posts: 2311
Joined: Jun 3, 2015
ESO: yemshi
Location: Germany

Re: Will Dutch get fixed in the new EP update?

Post by yemshi »

Problem is kinda that ruyters can't really kite pikes as good as goons (dunno why though), so youhave to face the cannons in age II or do some low-eco culv builds. Both hurts you too much.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV