EP9: SIOUX (actual thread)

[[Armag] diarouga]

Native civs have 5 vill start from TWC. It's not proper to give sioux 6 vills here. Teepees are rarely used in RE, and giving them an eco boost aura (though it should not be better than Karni Mata) is a good idea before. I'm not sure why should we "revert" everything here.

Age 5 wooded wall is also a joke. Age 2 (or at least age 3) wooden walls should be unlocked:
1. Wooden walls are too easy to build. There's no reason sioux can't build walls.
2. Sioux is similar to AOE2 Huns, and Huns can build wooden walls too (but no stone walls).
3. As walls only have 1500 HP in EP, giving sioux walls doesn't hurt the balance.

0. The teepee change is unpopular because it leads to stale games. You can't push the sioux base because he has teepees boosting his units, and he doesn't need to leave his base because he has a good eco. And with 40w teepee that can be built by infantry, be sure we will still see teepees.

1. Sioux can't build walls because it's a nomad civ. You have faster units to catch raids, so it's not an issue in early/middle game. It sucks in late game but Sioux is bad in late game by design, that's how it works.
2. Both Sioux and Huns start with 200 pop and have good bow riders, but Huns don't have a speed boost, so they're not totally similar.
3. It's not balance it's design.

Honestly, we shouldn't have implemented this change because now people are meming and complaining that it's not enough. There would be no complaints had we not added walls in imperial.

[kaister]

Honestly, we shouldn't have implemented these change because now people are meming and complaining that it's not enough. There would be no complaints had you not needlessly totally redesigned Sioux in a mediocre fashion for the 63882th time.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Honestly, we shouldn't have implemented these change because now people are meming and complaining that it's not enough. There would be no complaints had you not needlessly totally redesigned Sioux in a mediocre fashion for the 63882th time.

51% of the community dislikes the Sioux teepee design, while only 35% like it, that's a good reason to scrap this design.
And Sioux wasn't "totally redesigned", it was just changed back to its RE state with some buffs. And EP9 Sioux should be as good as EP8 Sioux, except you'll have to be active on the map now instead of camping in base.

[kaister]

Shall we poll what % of the community likes the fact japan can sit in base for the entire game, or shall we just keep that design

[[Armag] diarouga]

Shall we poll what % of the community likes the fact japan can sit in base for the entire game, or shall we just keep that design

Japan was designed that way, that's the difference. Sioux is designed to be a nomad civ on the RE, and turning Sioux into Japan 2.0 was a mistake.

[spanky4ever]

I guess most ppl who actually play sioux, like the teepee buff.
Ppl who face a sioux with better eco, dislike it. Simple as that I think.

[wardyb1]

I guess most ppl who actually play sioux, like the teepee buff.
Ppl who face a sioux with better eco, dislike it. Simple as that I think.

Just as Japanese players probably would advocate for Yumi buffs if they could. Doesn't mean it makes sense.

[spanky4ever]

I guess most ppl who actually play sioux, like the teepee buff.
Ppl who face a sioux with better eco, dislike it. Simple as that I think.

Just as Japanese players probably would advocate for Yumi buffs if they could. Doesn't mean it makes sense.

Does not make sense that sioux was totally absent in many touraments in a row, because they just were not compatible eithter.
Now, atleast they are getting played some.
To me, it makes perfectly sense that there is a economic buff AND a buff in military strenght, where they put down camp (teepees). It is just VERY common sensical

[Kaiserklein]

Honestly, we shouldn't have implemented these change because now people are meming and complaining that it's not enough.

Shouldn't have implemented what changes? And who's memeing about sioux besides you

There would be no complaints had you not needlessly totally redesigned Sioux in a mediocre fashion for the 63882th time.

Who's "you"? Current team hasn't redesigned sioux at all, just bringing it closer to its original design. The eco teepees thing should have never happened so they're being reverted.
I'd be curious to know what changes you propose for them anyway.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I guess most ppl who actually play sioux, like the teepee buff.
Ppl who face a sioux with better eco, dislike it. Simple as that I think.

Just as Japanese players probably would advocate for Yumi buffs if they could. Doesn't mean it makes sense.

Does not make sense that sioux was totally absent in many touraments in a row, because they just were not compatible eithter.
Now, atleast they are getting played some.

Sioux is not getting played because people don't play it. Even when it was op, people wouldn't play it because playing a civ you're comfortable with is more important than playing a good civ.
How many people play Sioux is really not a good indicator of balance.

To me, it makes perfectly sense that there is a economic buff AND a buff in military strenght, where they put down camp (teepees). It is just VERY common sensical

We don't balance around how it should work in real life. With that logic, we'd nerf melee units even more and buff ranged units, because that's how it would work in real life.

[kaister]

Honestly, we shouldn't have implemented these change because now people are meming and complaining that it's not enough.

Shouldn't have implemented what changes? And who's memeing about sioux besides you

There would be no complaints had you not needlessly totally redesigned Sioux in a mediocre fashion for the 63882th time.

Who's "you"? Current team hasn't redesigned sioux at all, just bringing it closer to its original design. The eco teepees thing should have never happened so they're being reverted.
I'd be curious to know what changes you propose for them anyway.

was literally copying the rouga post num nuts

[Kaiserklein]

No one plays sioux because it's just an obnoxious civ that forces your opponent into sitting in base forever. Makes for shit games

[Kaiserklein]

was literally copying the rouga post num nuts

Ah, didn't read his post

[[Armag] diarouga]

Honestly, we shouldn't have implemented these change because now people are meming and complaining that it's not enough.

Shouldn't have implemented what changes? And who's memeing about sioux besides you

There would be no complaints had you not needlessly totally redesigned Sioux in a mediocre fashion for the 63882th time.

Who's "you"? Current team hasn't redesigned sioux at all, just bringing it closer to its original design. The eco teepees thing should have never happened so they're being reverted.
I'd be curious to know what changes you propose for them anyway.

was literally copying the rouga post num nuts

Except mine makes sense.
People are making fun of age 5 walls, while the change is irrelevant regarding balance, why do you keep talking about this one ?

[kaister]

I mean we can all agree Sioux gets outscaled by like 20 minutes or so on ep8. If the game goes much further past that Sioux almost always loses if they’re not too well ahead. Sure these changes make the first 10 minutes or so of the game better for Sioux but it just shortens the time Sioux has to make something happen before they just flat out lose.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I mean we can all agree Sioux gets outscaled by like 20 minutes or so on ep8. If the game goes much further past that Sioux almost always loses if they’re not too well ahead. Sure these changes make the first 10 minutes or so of the game better for Sioux but it just shortens the time Sioux has to make something happen before they just flat out lose.

Yes, but you'll get an advantage in early game so you can't think like that.
For instance, in many MUs, you'll now be able to secure the TP line and get stagecoach thanks to your age 1 TP. In other MUs, your opponent will have to delay (or even skip) his age 3 to defend your early agressions, and if you want, you can even go to age 3 25 sec faster and get 2 400w TC and spam villagers if you want to boom.

3 TC is probably not viable in a 1v1 game, but I think we'll see much more 2 TC strategies actually.

Just stop crying and play the beta if you want to prove your point.

[chronique]

And EP9 Sioux should be as good as EP8 Sioux, except you'll have to be active on the map now instead of camping in base.

Sioux will be better on ep9 with this 6 starting vili. This buff is insane.

[flontier]

I predict sioux is going to be nerf in ep10.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I predict sioux is going to be nerf in ep10.

EP9.1 you mean ?

[chris1089]

I predict sioux is going to be nerf in ep10.

Unless the change doesn't get through beta.

[spanky4ever]

@Diarouga said

We don't balance around how it should work in real life. With that logic, we'd nerf melee units even more and buff ranged units, because that's how it would work in real life.

Well, you used the argument that they are nomads, and thus should not have walls.
So if that is not important, to make them authentic I mean, then they should have walls, like all the other civs has.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@Diarouga said

We don't balance around how it should work in real life. With that logic, we'd nerf melee units even more and buff ranged units, because that's how it would work in real life.

Well, you used the argument that they are nomads, and thus should not have walls.
So if that is not important, to make them authentic I mean, then they should have walls, like all the other civs has.

There's a difference, them being nomad is a game design choice. Their WC has a speed aura.

[spanky4ever]

same difference imo. The teepee buff makes sense to me, in any case.

[helln00]

The thing about sioux is that the possiblility of playing base defense with it has always existed with things like friendly territory and nomadic expansion. Its not like the changes to sioux was completely out of thin air, it tried to make a part of the sioux playstyle more core to the civ.

Now it could be said that it made the civ too different and stupid to play against, but tbh it does have some advantages compared to boosting sioux rush playstyle since it does allow sioux to scale into the lategame with less issues compare to giving them eco upgrades or walls.

I think wat could have been done is to just remove the inherent attack boost from the teepees(making it eco and hp aura) and put it into a fortress or industrial card so that its an option for sioux late game upgrades. it allows sioux bases to still be somewhat vulnerable to raids. We might also want to consider scaling the eco aura with either an age up or an upgrade like how Japan's shrine have an industrial upgrade.

[Astaroth]

I still don't get why Sioux doesn't just get a raiding boost, e.g. a bonus vs villagers for their cav.

Benefits:
- makes the ecos between the civs more equal without buffing Sioux eco (which would be a bit against their civ design)
- keep their identity as an aggressivve raiding civ
- force the opponent to defend their vills, making all-in HI rushes vs Sioux not too viable
- (!) importantly: make them more similar to RE without OP bowriders: on RE, hunts are more spread out and rare, making Sioux raiding more viable. On EP, the safe hunts could be compensated for by giving Sioux a raiding buff