EP9: Church XP Trickle

[n0el]

Figure out the names for each church

[howlingwolfpaw]

for china does it have any age ups that always get ignored? such as the one that increases the strength of disciples, maybe that wonder could be an XP wonder instead.

[chris1089]

Figure out the names for each church

Wouldn't be hard to do. I can think of a few off the top of my head.

[iNcog]

French would be "Eglise", so there you are

[duckzilla]

German would be "Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtniskirche"

[RefluxSemantic]

We have native speakers of every European civ's language here anyways, so that should be really easy to do.

Unless you want the specific names of these churches. But for the Dutch one I don't think it represents a real church (quite frankly, it doesn't really look like Dutch churches do).

[Jotunir]

I suggest the following:

- XP trickle in church is only given to some European civilizations that need it on non-TP maps. Kind of like how not every civilization gets a musketeer type unit, maybe some techs should be unique to some civilizations. Which is a bit different from standard AOE3 design (after all, it's unique shipments rather than unique techs), but I don't think it departs from traditional design too much. That way Germany can have XP trickle on a no-TP map, whereas Russia doesn't need it. Making this unique tech available to only some European civilizations would make tweaking balance a little bit easier too, which should make it easier on everyone in the long run.
- XP trickle in church is one option, but I would like to recommend a "Mercantilism-lite" tech in the church as well, that would be available earlier than traditional mercantilism.
- Possibly rework one of the trickle cards in Age 1 to be an XP trickle.

Just throwing some stuff out there that could be done for the sake of balance. Tossing an XP trickle in the church for all European civilizations seems a brittle solution and I could see it causing more problems than it solves.

This seems like the correct solution to the problem, I agree with your idea.

[howlingwolfpaw]

if u guys go this route the tech should have some draw backs, like since it is a safer build of a church in base than a TP out in the open tech should cost more like 250-300 wood (depending on amount). and once completed if the church is destroyed should increase the cost of the next church to 200. So it still gives the XP you need but is a little slower/ need more investment. and can be punished by enemy without too cheapy rebuilt


also this would encourage people to still use TP on TP maps since a 350-400 investment for a church/ XP would be far less efficient than going for stage coach

[harcha]

I dislike the idea of putting too many new techs in the game, church trickle on only some civs would be a good idea tho.

I don't have any problems with some civs getting access to these things while others don't. Like if you play French Germ on a non TP map and only Germ has access to 100w 0.5xp/s trickle imo it's fair. Say you give this trickle to Germs and Ports, and call it a day.

I dislike overly complicating simple matters. No need to add new techs with new prices at fulfillment of arbitrary requirements. No need to over-complicate this.

[howlingwolfpaw]

Adding a whole mechanic that makes a church like a trade post is overly complicating the game. I think it will have ramifications you will then be trying to balance out. Germany has some of the best shipments, it is meant to have a slower XP trickle. What would it then do to them on a TP map.... The point is to add options but to make a game balanced it has to have trade offs or a logical cost associated with it.
Maybe the easiest solution is just to change how much extra XP Germany needs to make a shipment.

It would be unwise to make a church XP better than trying to go for a TP. And for only 100W. (builds faster too) people will have that church up in under a minute. will change everything.

[harcha]

Adding a whole mechanic that makes a church like a trade post is overly complicating the game. I think it will have ramifications you will then be trying to balance out. Germany has some of the best shipments, it is meant to have a slower XP trickle. What would it then do to them on a TP map.... The point is to add options but to make a game balanced it has to have trade offs or a logical cost associated with it.
Maybe the easiest solution is just to change how much extra XP Germany needs to make a shipment.

It would be unwise to make a church XP better than trying to go for a TP. And for only 100W. (builds faster too) people will have that church up in under a minute. will change everything.

Changing their shipment xp penalty is discussed as well, see earlier posts. It's just about making Germany competitive on non TP maps. If we gave the german church a small trickle and made it build longer I think it would be a good compromise waiting to be tested.

[dutchdude117]

I definitely think all euro civs should get the exp trickle

[dutchdude117]

Especially Dutch

[surfnslide]

Maybe give China a tech in villages for small xp trickle (or in any of their other unique buildings).

Also making sacred field somewhat viable would be great since it’s never used...

Also make priests viable by reducing cost and upping healrate. Spy changes are good, but there should be a build limit (like 10?!)

[Riotcoke]

The sacred field is already viable, someone will have to correct me, but with 6 cows I believe the xp rate is similar to a tp

[WickedCossack]

The sacred field is already viable, someone will have to correct me, but with 6 cows I believe the xp rate is similar to a tp

The point at which the field generates more XP is between 7-8 cows/yaks. As it costs 25% more you need 9-10 cows relative to a 200w TP, though you could argue its better defendable which brings its own advantage.

I think the only maps that have 10-12 livestock are Manchuria, Kamchatka and Parallel Rivers (there's probably another ... ?) For you to get 9 + would mean going up against a single explorer civ that builds an age 1 TP like Germany or Ottos and even then I would suggest you only get 9+ maybe 20% of the time.

So really it's only viable in 2 MU's on 3 ESOC maps about 20% of the time, which is why we don't see it.

[Riotcoke]

@WickedCossack with the tp nerfs it should be slightly less animals I guess.

Is the tech that makes the field more efficient ever worth it as well?

[WickedCossack]

@WickedCossack with the tp nerfs it should be slightly less animals I guess.

Is the tech that makes the field more efficient ever worth it as well?

Ah that's true, the EP9 xp changes will affect that.

Unless there's some underlying buggy aoe3 maths behind the tech it isn't worth it. 300 res for 25% boost? May aswell spend 200 res on a 100% TP boost.

I do have a special Goraksha deck for the 0.01% chance that you get the llama summer araucania spawn in QS, the only variant of a map where you can legit get 25-30 livestock in 1min. Ship it first and you get a field age 1 and 80% boost to all livestock gains. You can then enjoy your back to back shipments till the game ends.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

@WickedCossack with the tp nerfs it should be slightly less animals I guess.

Is the tech that makes the field more efficient ever worth it as well?

Ah that's true, the EP9 xp changes will affect that.

Unless there's some underlying buggy aoe3 maths behind the tech it isn't worth it. 300 res for 25% boost? May aswell spend 200 res on a 100% TP boost.

I do have a special Goraksha deck for the 0.01% chance that you get the llama summer araucania spawn in QS, the only variant of a map where you can legit get 25-30 livestock in 1min. Ship it first and you get a field age 1 and 80% boost to all livestock gains. You can then enjoy your back to back shipments till the game ends.

I'm definitely trying this next time. What's in your deck ?

[WickedCossack]

Honestly it's just a regular deck with the exception that you have Goraksha in age 1 and send it first.

Don't get your hopes up though, the chances of getting Araucania, and then getting the correct variant (out of 3) are very slim. I have not seen the numbers but I'm convinced the weighting on the llama version is also at 25% or lower and not split evenly. You know if you get the right version because you will start with a nature walled pen of llamas.

[Riotcoke]

llamas don't gain as much as a boost from what i recall, their base actually is comparable with cows the last time i checked. That map is funny though, you can just go to the middle of the map and there's like 12 llamas standing in one spot

[surfnslide]

The sacred field is already viable, someone will have to correct me, but with 6 cows I believe the xp rate is similar to a tp

Still no one uses it, at least I’ve never (or maybe once) seen it since 5 years. As @WickedCossack pointed out, to be a better option it (and the tech) needs a buff. Since mitoe asked about suggestions, that’s mine
Also I meant it should maybe be a (better) option even without a livestock map

[Riotcoke]

I'm just going to hijack this thread because there isn't a dutch thread and i don't want to bypass the perms to make one.

@Mitoe Please don't change the coffee trade tech, it's going to make dutch more broken than they already are in team.

[Kaiserklein]

Keeping a 10% speed penalty on every single unit, that Dutch always has to get if they want their eco to be remotely close to other civs in late game, is really not an option

[[Armag] diarouga]

Making the tech expensive is an option though. It could cost 500c (or even more if it's an issue in team).