EP9: Church XP Trickle

[Riotcoke]

Giving it a cost would be good.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah adding a cost is fine

[dutchdude117]

To be honest we should try and see how it works out before we jump to automatically adding cost.

[[Armag] diarouga]

To be honest we should try and see how it works out before we jump to automatically adding cost.

What do you want to try lol ?
It doesn't really matter in the 1v1 balance but in team it's simply too strong. You have +1 bank, the church card gives +2banks (which is already a very good shipment) AND 5 stradiots for 1000c (which is +500c basically), and it gives the musks in age 4.

A 500c + 2 bank + insane age 4 button shipment is just too good.

[dutchdude117]

Just because a card is good doesn't really mean dutch is going to be broken all of the sudden I really think you guys are over reacting to what is going to end up being a insignificant buff. What I mean by try is that you put the change in, see the results and collect some data and get feed back from players. You think it is going to be broken, I disagree, let's see what happens. If you're right I totally agree it probably should be changed. You have to realize that many civs have pretty strong cards, but those civs are not broken because it gets balanced out in other ways. This change to me is more of a quality of life change, it was completely unnecessary to slow entire army down by 10% because you still have to pay resources and ship a card to build those banks, which in my opinion is enough of a cost on its own.

[dutchdude117]

To be honest here I am not much of a team player, I mostly just do 1v1, so keep that in mind. But I still strongly believe my analysis of the situation is correct.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Dutch is already one of the best civs in team, and this is a huge buff to Dutch in team, which is why we should add a cost to that tech. We don't implement "random changes" in EP9, and the idea of this change was to buff Dutch's late game by removing the malus, but on the other hand, we don't want to buff their middle game, which is already fantastic, which is why a cost should be added.

In defensive team games, you're going to see 700w/bank/600w/1000w/church card into 8 bank boom quite offend with no side effect, and that's not really a good thing.

[[Armag] diarouga]

To be honest here I am not much of a team player, I mostly just do 1v1, so keep that in mind. But I still strongly believe my analysis of the situation is correct.

It's not going to be relevant in 1v1, so it makes sense for you not to be concerned about that change. As I explained above though, it's going to buff significantly a top tier civ in team.

[Mitoe]

It is relevant for 1v1 for sure, IMO.

I think 500c is a massive cost. If that's going to be the case I would rather not make the change at all, personally. First thing I would like to try is to just increase the research time to a full minute

[dansil92]

It is relevant for 1v1 for sure, IMO.

I think 500c is a massive cost. If that's going to be the case I would rather not make the change at all, personally. First thing I would like to try is to just increase the research time to a full minute

I think 500c is quite fair. Unlocking a bank costs an age 1 shipment (300 res) so this is quite a solid opportunity cost in addition the already quite solid unit techs

[princeofcarthage]

It is relevant for 1v1 for sure, IMO.

I think 500c is a massive cost. If that's going to be the case I would rather not make the change at all, personally. First thing I would like to try is to just increase the research time to a full minute

I think 500c is quite fair. Unlocking a bank costs an age 1 shipment (300 res) so this is quite a solid opportunity cost in addition the already quite solid unit techs

You are already sending an age 3 shipment which is worth 1000c + u need to build church whose cost is also now increased. An additional 500c to build 2 banks which will take 1400 resources to build. That effectively puts bank payback time at more than 9 mins lol. Sure

[Hazza54321]

dude it should be a long term negative effect along with the other church cards. the dutch church card is already the only viable church card and its getting a buff? I get that slower military speed is awkward and annoying but at least change to -20% building hp or villager hp something like that, giving it to them for free basically just deletes the 2 age 1 cards in 1v1 , and makes u send them after church card in team ( before youd consider sending the age 1 cards first so u didnt have slower units, slower ruyters can be annoying when chasing goon or cav raids for example). Dutch is already a top 2v2 and 3v3 civ, this literally is just an unneccesary buff to their mid game which is already one of the best in the game.

[Kaiserklein]

Obviously you don't send the church card just for the 2 extra banks lol, can't count like that. It's safe to assume that in every situation you send that card you'll get stradiots, and most of the time the 30 musks too. So saying it costs a 1000g shipments to unlock 2 extra banks is wrong.
Anyway, yes it's an expensive investment. But that's what it should be, it's a lategame tech, and investing into lategame is expensive. Think about the cost of plantation upgrades for example (1200 res for the last one).

It is relevant for 1v1 for sure, IMO.

I think 500c is a massive cost. If that's going to be the case I would rather not make the change at all, personally. First thing I would like to try is to just increase the research time to a full minute

I think 500g is too much yeah, but in any case I think what matters is that you don't have a long run drawback like the 10% speed penalty. Cause it meant dutch had to choose between hurting their eco and hurting their military. A cost isn't nearly as impactful.
But yeah I'd go for 250-300g.

[Kaiserklein]

dude it should be a long term negative effect along with the other church cards. the dutch church card is already the only viable church card and its getting a buff? I get that slower military speed is awkward and annoying but at least change to -20% building hp or villager hp something like that, giving it to them for free basically just deletes the 2 age 1 cards in 1v1 , and makes u send them after church card in team ( before youd consider sending the age 1 cards first so u didnt have slower units, slower ruyters can be annoying when chasing goon or cav raids for example). Dutch is already a top 2v2 and 3v3 civ, this literally is just an unneccesary buff to their mid game which is already one of the best in the game.

But it literally can't be a long term negative effect. You can't make dutch choose between having a terrible eco and having some other drawback (unless it's some irrelevant drawback). Either way it means their lategame will be terrible. That's why a fixed cost is more interesting.
-20% building or vil hp wouldn't be too much of an issue but I just don't see the point of it. Seems just ugly and random.

Btw it's not about how viable this church card is compared to others. Precisely other church cards which are not viable are irrelevant, no one sends them, it's fine this way, not every card has to be viable. This specific church card needs extra attention because it's a must in any dutch deck.
The age 1 cards are already non existant in 1v1. They're not viable.

Also keep in mind we're balancing for 1v1 and not team. And we're not trying to buff their middle game, but their late game. If it proves to be too strong for middle game, we could always increase the cost.

[dutchdude117]

dude it should be a long term negative effect along with the other church cards. the dutch church card is already the only viable church card and its getting a buff? I get that slower military speed is awkward and annoying but at least change to -20% building hp or villager hp something like that, giving it to them for free basically just deletes the 2 age 1 cards in 1v1 , and makes u send them after church card in team ( before youd consider sending the age 1 cards first so u didnt have slower units, slower ruyters can be annoying when chasing goon or cav raids for example). Dutch is already a top 2v2 and 3v3 civ, this literally is just an unneccesary buff to their mid game which is already one of the best in the game.

But it literally can't be a long term negative effect. You can't make dutch choose between having a terrible eco and having some other drawback (unless it's some irrelevant drawback). Either way it means their lategame will be terrible. That's why a fixed cost is more interesting.
-20% building or vil hp wouldn't be too much of an issue but I just don't see the point of it. Seems just ugly and random.

Btw it's not about how viable this church card is compared to others. Precisely other church cards which are not viable are irrelevant, no one sends them, it's fine this way, not every card has to be viable. This specific church card needs extra attention because it's a must in any dutch deck.
The age 1 cards are already non existant in 1v1. They're not viable.

Also keep in mind we're balancing for 1v1 and not team. And we're not trying to buff their middle game, but their late game. If it proves to be too strong for middle game, we could always increase the cost.

This is what I was thinking, but couldnt find the words to say.

[Mitoe]

dude it should be a long term negative effect along with the other church cards. the dutch church card is already the only viable church card and its getting a buff? I get that slower military speed is awkward and annoying but at least change to -20% building hp or villager hp something like that, giving it to them for free basically just deletes the 2 age 1 cards in 1v1 , and makes u send them after church card in team ( before youd consider sending the age 1 cards first so u didnt have slower units, slower ruyters can be annoying when chasing goon or cav raids for example). Dutch is already a top 2v2 and 3v3 civ, this literally is just an unneccesary buff to their mid game which is already one of the best in the game.

But it literally can't be a long term negative effect. You can't make dutch choose between having a terrible eco and having some other drawback (unless it's some irrelevant drawback). Either way it means their lategame will be terrible. That's why a fixed cost is more interesting.
-20% building or vil hp wouldn't be too much of an issue but I just don't see the point of it. Seems just ugly and random.

Btw it's not about how viable this church card is compared to others. Precisely other church cards which are not viable are irrelevant, no one sends them, it's fine this way, not every card has to be viable. This specific church card needs extra attention because it's a must in any dutch deck.
The age 1 cards are already non existant in 1v1. They're not viable.

Also keep in mind we're balancing for 1v1 and not team. And we're not trying to buff their middle game, but their late game. If it proves to be too strong for middle game, we could always increase the cost.

Team is still important. More people play team than play 1v1.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It is relevant for 1v1 for sure, IMO.

I think 500c is a massive cost. If that's going to be the case I would rather not make the change at all, personally. First thing I would like to try is to just increase the research time to a full minute

I think 500c is quite fair. Unlocking a bank costs an age 1 shipment (300 res) so this is quite a solid opportunity cost in addition the already quite solid unit techs

You are already sending an age 3 shipment which is worth 1000c + u need to build church whose cost is also now increased. An additional 500c to build 2 banks which will take 1400 resources to build. That effectively puts bank payback time at more than 9 mins lol. Sure

Building a church gives an exp trickle, and I'd say that this exp trickle is worth 100w, so one could argue that building a church effectively costs 50w now.

Furthermore, I explained that the 5 stradiots are worth 1500c, so getting them for 1000c is +500c.

So you'd have to spend 500 (a shipment is worth 1000 as you said) + 500 (cost of the tech) + 1400 (banks) = 2400 resources (let's say it's gold to make it easier)
2 banks gather 5.5/sec so this tech costs 440 sec to pay off, that is to say 7min. That sounds totally fair for a late game shipment. It's much better than refrigeration for instance.

And keep in mind that this change is meant to buff Dutch in late game, because having these 2 extra banks is a must in late game, but having -10% speed sucks hard. With no drawbacks, people will send it early in team (which is unintended), and it will even be a strong shipment in 1v1.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think 500g is too much yeah.

I'd pay 500c instead of -10% unit speed anyday. And in late game 500c is laughable with Dutch.

[princeofcarthage]

Show hidden quotes

It is relevant for 1v1 for sure, IMO.

I think 500c is a massive cost. If that's going to be the case I would rather not make the change at all, personally. First thing I would like to try is to just increase the research time to a full minute

I think 500c is quite fair. Unlocking a bank costs an age 1 shipment (300 res) so this is quite a solid opportunity cost in addition the already quite solid unit techs

You are already sending an age 3 shipment which is worth 1000c + u need to build church whose cost is also now increased. An additional 500c to build 2 banks which will take 1400 resources to build. That effectively puts bank payback time at more than 9 mins lol. Sure

Building a church gives an exp trickle, and I'd say that this exp trickle is worth 100w, so one could argue that building a church effectively costs 50w now.

Furthermore, I explained that the 5 stradiots are worth 1500c, so getting them for 1000c is +500c.

So you'd have to spend 500 (a shipment is worth 1000 as you said) + 500 (cost of the tech) + 1400 (banks) = 2400 resources (let's say it's gold to make it easier)
2 banks gather 5.5/sec so this tech costs 440 sec to pay off, that is to say 7min. That sounds totally fair for a late game shipment. It's much better than refrigeration for instance.

And keep in mind that this change is meant to buff Dutch in late game, because having these 2 extra banks is a must in late game, but having -10% speed sucks hard. With no drawbacks, people will send it early in team (which is unintended), and it will even be a strong shipment in 1v1.

But choice of having one advantage over another is a common theme in advanced church. 7/8 civs has this with the exception being otto (for diversity I believe), then why are you singling dutch out? If you believe this is a late game tech then speed in 90% of the cases is irrelevant in late team games. You remove the drawback you end up buffing dutch early to mid game rather than late. Besides how does .5 speed anyways buff late game dutch? Coming to stradiots it is literally one of the major design of advanced church, every civ gets mercs for cheaper cost, so the argument of cheaper stradiots (arguably they are not) doesn't hold up. You want additional eco at expense of mobility or you want to keep the mobility but less eco is a choice players should make not forced upon.


Besides, the point, how does -10% speed or not buff dutch in late game

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you believe this is a late game tech then speed in 90% of the cases is irrelevant in late team games.

No, please try to think before posting idiocies like that.

You remove the drawback you end up buffing dutch early to mid game rather than late.

Ye, that's the point, and that's the issue. That's why I'd remove the drawback (to buff Dutch's late game) and add a cost (500c is a minimum tbh) to make it unviable in middle game.

Besides how does .5 speed anyways buff late game dutch?

Learn to play please.

Coming to stradiots it is literally one of the major design of advanced church, every civ gets mercs for cheaper cost, so the argument of cheaper stradiots (arguably they are not) doesn't hold up.

It does. You're saying that an age 3 shipment is worth 1000 resources and that the church card is "just" a 2 bank shipment, but it's not. It's a 2bank shipment + 5 stradiots for 1000c while they're worth 1500c.
You can apply the same logic to the other church cards, but they're still bad because the merc button is only worth 500 resources, and the tech is often not worth 500 resources.

Besides, the point, how does -10% speed or not buff dutch in late game

Do I really have to answer that ? Do you know that late game in team is not spamming units like a retard with walls everywhere on the map like treaty players do ? It's more complicated than that. First, you usually can't build 50 layers of walls because the map is too big and you don't have enough wood in bank, so you need to defend your walls and even deal with raids when your opponents break your walls, and in sup, since you don't have infinite resources, you want to hit and run a bit in late game, and go back when you're losing a fight, which is why speed is necessary.

[princeofcarthage]

Define "late". If by late you mean 20+ then I don't see why speed would be "that" relevant. Of course certain civs and situations benefit more than other but that is what diversity is. You don't send church card for stradiots, you send it for banks. Without the bank tech like other civs dutch also won't send church card. It is nice to have couple techs that synergizes well with dutch strats and design but that's that.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Define "late". If by late you mean 20+ then I don't see why speed would be "that" relevant. Of course certain civs and situations benefit more than other but that is what diversity is. You don't send church card for stradiots, you send it for banks. Without the bank tech like other civs dutch also won't send church card. It is nice to have couple techs that synergizes well with dutch strats and design but that's that.

Ye, by late I mean late age 3 or early age 4 so 15min in boomy games, 20 in agressive games, and if you don't understand why speed is that relevant that's because you don't know how high level team games are played.

You don't send church card for stradiots, but you get both when you send the church card, so you can't say "church card = 2 banks" because church card = 2 banks +500c for stradiots + 1000c for musks if you're in industrial.

[Hazza54321]

dude it should be a long term negative effect along with the other church cards. the dutch church card is already the only viable church card and its getting a buff? I get that slower military speed is awkward and annoying but at least change to -20% building hp or villager hp something like that, giving it to them for free basically just deletes the 2 age 1 cards in 1v1 , and makes u send them after church card in team ( before youd consider sending the age 1 cards first so u didnt have slower units, slower ruyters can be annoying when chasing goon or cav raids for example). Dutch is already a top 2v2 and 3v3 civ, this literally is just an unneccesary buff to their mid game which is already one of the best in the game.

But it literally can't be a long term negative effect. You can't make dutch choose between having a terrible eco and having some other drawback (unless it's some irrelevant drawback). Either way it means their lategame will be terrible. That's why a fixed cost is more interesting.
-20% building or vil hp wouldn't be too much of an issue but I just don't see the point of it. Seems just ugly and random.

Btw it's not about how viable this church card is compared to others. Precisely other church cards which are not viable are irrelevant, no one sends them, it's fine this way, not every card has to be viable. This specific church card needs extra attention because it's a must in any dutch deck.
The age 1 cards are already non existant in 1v1. They're not viable.

Also keep in mind we're balancing for 1v1 and not team. And we're not trying to buff their middle game, but their late game. If it proves to be too strong for middle game, we could always increase the cost.

I dont see it being ugly and random , its a relevant drawback, for example theres a native tech which increases villager count but reduces their hp , church card could be increases bank limit but reduce their hp. I dont see how its ugly if its already in the game

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Why not try a simple halfway buff like +2 banks/decrease speed by 5% (or 2% if 5% is still too much, or 5% decrease but only for inf or only for cav or only for cannons) ?
You keep the same design which is always nice and make it easier to asses consequences, and buff the card while not making it OP.

[wardyb1]

Why not try a simple halfway buff like +2 banks/decrease speed by 5% (or 2% if 5% is still too much, or 5% decrease but only for inf or only for cav or only for cannons) ?
You keep the same design which is always nice and make it easier to asses consequences, and buff the card while not making it OP.

Definitely if you just made it infantry speed that would make sense. The idea is that without coffee, they are slower. So only affecting men makes more sense. It no longer means Ruyter can't catch raids. Still offers the same negative trade off that is associated with church card. And means that the card still can't be abused too early in the game when there is plenty of room to move around the map.