EP9: More details on fixed crates

[Mitoe]

There seemed to be some confusion / uncertainty about exactly what fixed crates would look like or what they seek to accomplish, so here's a bit more information. Please discuss and make suggestions, if you have ideas. We will poll this again when we get closer to beta testing, or once it has been tested, depending on how positive or negative the discussion seems to be. It will be polled before the final release of EP9 either way.


A lot of civs (arguably) differ greatly on different crate starts. India or Japan for example are significantly faster or slower depending on whether they received an additional wood or coin crate. Some starts give you plenty of options, while others result in almost no options. Reducing the amount of randomness at the start of the game gives a lot more control over game balance, as well as more accurate information to go on when actually addressing game balance.




Civilization Crate Proposal:
This is my proposal for each civilization at the moment. The goal is mostly to focus on giving the player some decisions to make at the beginning of the game.

The best part about fixed crates is that none of this is set in stone, and all of it is easily tweakable to either better balance a civ or give it more interesting early gameplay.

Aztec (Food + Wood )

Spoiler

4 Food
3 Wood

Options:
- Firepit
- Firepit + Market
- Firepit + TP

British (Food + Wood )

Spoiler

3 Food
3 Wood

Options:
- Manor + Market
- Manor + TP
- Double Manor

China (Wood )

Spoiler

2 Food Crates
3 Wood

Options:
- TP + Village
- Double Village

Dutch (Coin + Wood )

Spoiler

5 Coin
2 Wood

Options:
- House
- House + Market
- House + TP (Yes, this is viable. Ask Raphael.)

- 14 villager age up is possible

I gave Dutch an extra coin crate instead of a food crate because it seems like it would be more interesting for them (makes market easier, for example), and they arguably don't benefit as much from the additional wood crate as other civs.

France (Food + Wood )

Spoiler

4 Food
2 Wood

Options:
- Market
- Trading Post
- 13 villager age up
- 12/10

Germany (Food + Coin )

Spoiler

3 Food
1 Wood
1 Coin

Options:
- House
- House + Market
- House + TP (Yes, chopping 200w is viable)

I've given Germany a coin crate instead of a wood crate, because I think TP would be too obvious for them and they likely would never go for a market. It also opens up the possibility of tweaking the XP penalty to 8% instead of 10%, to make them slightly more competitive on non-TP maps than they currently are.

India (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

2 Food
4 Wood

Options:
- House
- House + TP

- 10/10 Villager age up

Iroquois (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

5 Food
1 Wood

Options:
- Longhouse
- Longhouse + Farm
- Longhouse + TP
- Longhouse + Dock
- Longhouse + Market ( ? ) - I've seen some people do this I'm not sure if it's actually better than any of the others though.)

Japan (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

5 Food
3 Wood

Options:
- Shrine + Consulate
- Shrine + TP ( ? )

Japan is actually the least interesting of the civs here. It might be more interesting to give them an extra food or coin crate (or both?) instead. This is one I would be looking to tweak possibly, but it's a good starting point.

Ottoman (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

4 Wood
1 Food

Options:
- House + Mosque + TP
- House + TP + TP ( ? )
- House + Mosque + Market ( ? )
- House + Dock ( ? )

Ottoman is a bit of question mark for me here. They're a bit like Japan, they actually don't have many options because one is sort of clearly better than the others in most situations, but I've definitely seen people mix it up from time to time. It's another one I would be looking to tweak if need be; more for balance reasons though than for giving Ottomans options, since that doesn't really seem doable in age 1 with the way they're designed. Wood is a good starting point, though.

Portuguese (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

3 Food
2 Wood

Options:
- House
- House + Market
- House + TP

- 10/10 Villager age up

Russia (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

6 Food
2 Wood

Options:
- House
- House + Market
- House + TP (with 17v)

Locking the extra food crate in also makes it easier to age without idle time, which often happens when Russia has a wood start without the extra food crate on RE & previous versions of EP.

Sioux (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

4 Food Crates
1 Wood Crate

Options:
- Market
- TP
- Teepee + something

Spain (Food + Wood ):

Spoiler

3 Food Crates
2 Wood Crates

Options:
- House
- House + Market
- House + TP

[Challenger_Marco]

Yes I agree with this!

[giveuanxiety]

Very nice write up and that looks really good. The only thing I disagree with is giving Germany a coin crate. It just feels weird them getting coin when France gets 200 wood. And basically no1 gets coin crate. I would give Germany 200 wood and balance around that.

[deleted_user]

My $0.02:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18747&p=406663&hil ... te#p406663

viewtopic.php?f=466&t=18694&p=404864&hi ... te#p404864

[[Armag] diarouga]

Japan can also go double shrine on wood start.
We'll have to remove some nerfs/buffs with fixed crates anyway, but that's a good thing I'd say.

[EAGLEMUT]

My $0.02:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18747&p=406663&hil ... te#p406663

viewtopic.php?f=466&t=18694&p=404864&hi ... te#p404864

This is an interesting and not as entirely unimplementable solution as it may seem. However, I would be afraid it's over-complicating the game setup too much with option bloat. Players counter-picking crate starts just sounds like a frustrating experience for everyone involved.

[Zeke]

Why China and Germany have different fixed crates to most other civs, sounds bit unfair to me.
What's the reason for China not having the 300f starting, don't see why China can't have the same starting crate as British, can probably revert village cost btw
In the case of Germany, food + wood start should be fine with the tp nerf on tp maps and success alternative xp on non-tp maps, could maybe try wood only

[Peachrocks]

Personally I feel on the most part as a starting point, things should be minimised and building age one trade posts shouldn’t be something that’s normalised and that other compensation is given as to make balance on Tp and non Tp significantly easier or at the very least closer. Ottoman is obviously an exception to the rule since they are a whole other problem and they’ve been building tps with their starting resources since the game came out.

I mean yeah Germany or almost anyone can chop out the tp if it really wants but that comes with being notably slower. Still regardless, fixing the crates makes it significantly easier to balance starts and players can figure out directly what they want.

[Hazza54321]

This honestly just feels like an ease of life change to be honest.

[kevinitalien]

i'm sad for german, i'm sad for ep, i hate this idea

[deleted_user]

i'm sad for german, i'm sad for ep, i hate this idea

would you like this idea if germany had 200w

[kevinitalien]

i'm sad for german, i'm sad for ep, i hate this idea

would you like this idea if germany had 200w

no

[Qosashvili93]

China was cancer even after starting crate nerfs and now will be super buper cancer civ again

Idk how it will work, id like idea of giving all civs just neutral crates, but maybe this will work better idk need shit ton of tests

[deleted_user]

i'm sad for german, i'm sad for ep, i hate this idea

would you like this idea if germany had 200w

no

but y tho

[kevinitalien]

Show hidden quotes

i'm sad for german, i'm sad for ep, i hate this idea

would you like this idea if germany had 200w

no

but y tho

I can not imagine the German (start gold with xp nerf) facing the fre (start wood) or even worse the spain, see almost the same build occurred again and again now that the start will always be the same, it's terrible

[deleted_user]

But I asked what if ger also started with wood? You appeal to that same argument after already denouncing it. And Germany's xp penalty is being reduced. Read Mitoe's spoiler and respond to that. Know also that if fixed crates are accepted, then balance changes will occur to accommodate the resulting lack of irregularity.

Overarching builds are not very dependent upon crate start. You either build a market or a TP in age 1, and then the other in transition. But the effects of increased balance by fixing that crate start and knowing which is more likely to occur, are substantial.

This all just reinforces my idea to allow players to choose their random crate. No one gets mad, and balance gets achieved anyways. is ez.

[princeofcarthage]

Fixed crates would be a good idea if the other sections of the game were viable across the table. But certain things are pretty much better over the others. Combines this with an absolute best start over slightly or worse starts you would expect single or couple best starts to develop which will be played again and again

[Challenger_Marco]

Maybe give fre and ger both 1/2 chance of 200w start or 100g start?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Maybe give fre and ger both 1/2 chance of 200w start or 100g start?

That's not fixed crates, and sometimes you'd get a coin start against a wood start xD.

[deleted_user]

If fixed crates are to be established, they must be established alongside standard maps that don't have 4+ TPs, and the TP radius should be reverted, so that the line is always contestable with even one TP.

Non-TP maps should have just as many res in base as TP maps (they seem to not? perhaps non TP maps should even have more res in base) such that the ideal non-TP civs are not the always rush + contain civs like Russia, India, and Aztec.

[kevinitalien]

if a lot of players like this change, don't put the default start woods would be much better imo, the best solution is to delete all the extra crates and play with the one by defaults as garja said

[deleted_user]

if a lot of players like this change, don't put the default start woods would be much better imo, the best solution is to delete all the extra crates and play with the one by defaults as garja said

Not very fun if you can't ever market start, TP start, two village start, etccccccc because you just start with less crates. Besides, balance, whether fixed crates or not, has always incorporated this extra crate, so it would be foolish to delete it.

Part of the balance team is to not delete the fun from the game, and the fun begins at 0:01.

[kevinitalien]

if a lot of players like this change, don't put the default start woods would be much better imo, the best solution is to delete all the extra crates and play with the one by defaults as garja said

Not very fun if you can't ever market start, TP start, two village start, etccccccc because you just start with less crates. Besides, balance, whether fixed crates or not, has always incorporated this extra crate, so it would be foolish to delete it.

Part of the balance team is to not delete the fun from the game, and the fun begins at 0:01.

agree, but the fact of always having a start wood and repeating the same thing over and over also takes away pleasure as for example to see brit playing vc at all games or jap playing consulate port at all games, and then the meta tp starts to annoy everyone but its would be a start wood for everyone, it is a bit contradictory in the end, even if the tp are nerf its rest the same

[deleted_user]

if a lot of players like this change, don't put the default start woods would be much better imo, the best solution is to delete all the extra crates and play with the one by defaults as garja said

Not very fun if you can't ever market start, TP start, two village start, etccccccc because you just start with less crates. Besides, balance, whether fixed crates or not, has always incorporated this extra crate, so it would be foolish to delete it.

Part of the balance team is to not delete the fun from the game, and the fun begins at 0:01.

agree, but the fact of always having a start wood and repeating the same thing over and over also takes away pleasure as for example to see brit playing vc at all games or jap playing consulate port at all games, and then the meta tp starts to annoy everyone but its would be a start wood for everyone, it is a bit contradictory in the end, even if the tp are nerf its rest the same

But the TP nerfs could very well affect that. It's already difficult to TP and go 3v/VC as brit and have a card as you reach age 2. And in a lot of MUs you don't want to do that because it's too slow because you need to stack 200w for a military building asap.

So I will return to a point I made half a year ago - that players are boring, not the game or the crate start. It's a sad focus on what is considered "meta" when no one has actually "figured it out." It's not like age 1 decisions were really the exciting parts of the game before. The truth is that fixed crates may actually allow players to strategize ahead of time, and provide more interesting build orders, if they know what they're working with.

The simple fact that India v Dutch coin start can exist now is a reason to opt for fixed crates.

And I will say, again, that allowing players to choose which random crate they start with avoids all of this fucking mess without affecting balance. This idea is the only reason I'm even participating in this thread.

The only argument against this is refusing ger the TP start so that they are more balanced on non TP maps.

[Kaiserklein]

Good not to fix a TP start for Ger, as that means we'd have to balance them around it, making them super TP reliant and thus even worse than now on no TP maps. Maybe, as essentially every civ now gets a superior crate start than ger, and ger would be granted not to get an early TP easily, the xp penalty could be decreased to 105%. And then germany would even have a shipment ready upon colonial on a no TP map :OOO

I'm quite sure coin + wood is OP for dutch though. That means 14 age up without a delayed bank would be a thing we see often (just need a couple treasures probably), which is a bit risky. Even with a 15v age up, dutch would consistently be much faster than now. And having a good start snowballs especially hard as dutch, you sort of get your banks (and shipments) way earlier. Like dutch struggling to train a vil upon age up, waiting for 350f to drop the second bank, having to keep 2 vils on gold to maintain villager production, sending the bank wagon later because of the late xp from the delayed second bank... Is kinda not the same civ as dutch just queuing vils constantly thanks to early banks, slamming banks one after another, all vils on food.
I get that other civs also get the superior crates start, but I still think this is too strong, I may be wrong though.