EP9: INDIA

[Mitoe]

So India went from being a top-tier civ to a bottom-tier civ pretty quickly. There's some potential to overbuff here, so we're going to keep things simple to start out by making their builds a little bit less awkward. In theory fixed crates should help them as well.

CRATES FIXED TO FOOD + WOOD:
- 2 Food Crates
- 4 Wood Crates



- 5 Sepoy shipment increased to 6 Sepoy (720 resource value)
The 12 sepoy rush is not very good at the moment, now that sepoy die in 2 hits instead of 3 to the Town Center. This should help maintain the aggressive playstyle that has always been a part of India's identity, without buffing the unit that arguably caused many of India's balance issues.

- 600 Wood shipment increased to 700 Wood
- 600 Coin shipment increased to 700 Coin
Hopefully this should make the majority of India's builds feel a bit smoother, without making them overpowered.

- Ottoman Consulate LOS no longer affects buildings is REVERTED.
- Ottoman Consulate LOS bonus reduced from 10 to 7.
- Ottoman Consulate Minutemen cost REVERTED to 200 export (from 250 export)
The LOS bonus not affecting buildings meant this was less useful defensively, which is one of the main reasons to use Ottoman Consulate. We've made it affect buildings again and slightly reduced the effect.

House hitpoints partially reverted to 1000hp (from 800hp).
Now that houses cost 80w again, it makes sense to increase the hp. Avoiding a full revert for now because this is one of the main ways players punish the 3 TC boom from India.


I'm not going to be polling this one because there's more changes here than in other threads so far, so please be vocal about whether you like or dislike any of these changes.

[[Armag] diarouga]

We've already discussed that but I'm not a big fan of the 5=>6 sepoy buff. With a food+wood crate start, India will be able to age super fast, so the rush will hit faster, thus it doesn't need to be as strong as it was.

[RefluxSemantic]

Sepoy rush needs to be a real option. In my book its not acceptable to straight up remove one of a civs core strategies for the sake of balance. Idk what to think about 6 sepoy shipments. I'd rather see an attack nerf/hp buff, or a cost increase and a hp buff. The sepoy rush was a nice strat because it was an economical rush. You could pull that off because tanking TC fire with them was actually cost effective. When they get two shot, I think your idling is actually cost inefficient. I dont know if adding 1 sepoy to the rush is going to change this at all.

I dont think I like standardizing their crates. Their crates being so weak makes them more situational and lets you consider other stuff like the large trickle of 300 export or unit shipments more seriously. I dont really like changing this aspect of india. It feels like standardization and it also feels like it wont really improve the gameplay. Their FF stuff is slow, thats part of what india is about. I would be sad to see this changed.

The otto consulate changes are good.

[chronique]

Is it realy impossible to give +10hp to sepoy (and ballance arround that) more than all of this buff? 6 sepoy look so weird to me.

[Hazza54321]

honestly think with a fixed wood start the rush would be abit better, however the 12 sepoys isnt exactly scary still idk. still debating whether to have 6 sepoy or just leave it at the crate buffs and cons reverts

[Scroogie]

We've already discussed that but I'm not a big fan of the 5=>6 sepoy buff. With a food+wood crate start, India will be able to age super fast, so the rush will hit faster, thus it doesn't need to be as strong as it was.

Id say under tc 5 190 hp sepoys > 6 180 hp sepoys ?

[Mitoe]

I dont think I like standardizing their crates. Their crates being so weak makes them more situational and lets you consider other stuff like the large trickle of 300 export or unit shipments more seriously. I dont really like changing this aspect of india. It feels like standardization and it also feels like it wont really improve the gameplay. Their FF stuff is slow, thats part of what india is about. I would be sad to see this changed.

I thought about this as well, and I think it won't actually change whether the other cards are appealing or not. It's still going to result in more resources to send the trickle before you send wood, and 300 export is often sent as an economic shipment as well. Even when 300x is sent as a military shipment, I don't really see the extra 100 resources on the crates making it any less relevant.

[RefluxSemantic]

I dont think I like standardizing their crates. Their crates being so weak makes them more situational and lets you consider other stuff like the large trickle of 300 export or unit shipments more seriously. I dont really like changing this aspect of india. It feels like standardization and it also feels like it wont really improve the gameplay. Their FF stuff is slow, thats part of what india is about. I would be sad to see this changed.

I thought about this as well, and I think it won't actually change whether the other cards are appealing or not. It's still going to result in more resources to send the trickle before you send wood, and 300 export is often sent as an economic shipment as well. Even when 300x is sent as a military shipment, I don't really see the extra 100 resources on the crates making it any less relevant.

I strongly disagree with this logic. This will per definition make all other cards less relevant. It doesnt matter that in the long run the wood trickle still gives you more resources. The wood trickle is now significantly weaker compared to wood crates, which means it is less appealing to ship it over wood crates. This doesnt even seem like a point one can disagree with, its just a fact.

Whether it tips the scales is something that could be argued about, but there is a serious risk it does. Wood trickle first builds are already pretty uncommon. Wood trickle third (ie 600w 300 exp trickle) have fallen out of favor too. I see more 600w 300exp 600c builds lately. I even see some stuff like 5 sepoy 600w 600c. I think in terms of diversity india is in a perfect spot, where all their shipments seem reasonable in any order. If anything, 600w is already one of their strongest age 2 shipments. It doesnt feel right to buff it. At best this is an ugly way to buff india.

[Imperial Noob]

190 HP sepoys were a clear design meant to have them withstand 2 TC shots. I was never a fan of the destruction of this design.

It's qualitatively worse than the 190 -> 180 HP of uhlans, which merely made them die cleanly to 3 dopp swings, and to one less uhlan or huss hit

The same with janissaries: they had 235 HP to survive 10x 23 damage musketeer shots

[Sargsyan]

make sepoys great again!

[WickedCossack]

Wahey India thread

First question - what's the plan for future tournament map pools? If there are maps like Alaska and Gran Chaco rotating back in then these changes need to be looked at very differently.

I agree slow sepoy rush (and follow up age 2 play) would be good to bring back. I guess 6 sepoys does this? Would have to test to see how viable it is or not. The sowar buff will see some effect too if this becomes viable. Shame it boosts cons rush also but I guess that's fine.

Strongly opposed to the crate buffs, I'll have to dig out my 10 responses when this has been proposed years ago in the patch forums. Spent years campaigning for the mighty trickle when the meta was 600w 100% of the time for many years and we're now at a good balance of people shipping 600w/trickle/export in different orders. Also if age 2 rush is viable again then the crate boosts are just not needed. Currently the only way to play is to FF and/or FI which isn't always fun.

Cons and house boosts - fine, I don't think it changes much.

Regardless I'm pretty sure all the proposed changes together would be too strong, India is currently not as bad as the poll suggests, the rating is definitely an overreaction.

[optimusprime]

@SomppuKunkku

[Kaiserklein]

Why aren't we giving sepoys 190 hp and 24 attack if people want to be able to bot rush so badly btw?

I strongly disagree with this logic. This will per definition make all other cards less relevant. It doesnt matter that in the long run the wood trickle still gives you more resources. The wood trickle is now significantly weaker compared to wood crates, which means it is less appealing to ship it over wood crates. This doesnt even seem like a point one can disagree with, its just a fact.

Whether it tips the scales is something that could be argued about, but there is a serious risk it does. Wood trickle first builds are already pretty uncommon. Wood trickle third (ie 600w 300 exp trickle) have fallen out of favor too. I see more 600w 300exp 600c builds lately. I even see some stuff like 5 sepoy 600w 600c. I think in terms of diversity india is in a perfect spot, where all their shipments seem reasonable in any order. If anything, 600w is already one of their strongest age 2 shipments. It doesnt feel right to buff it. At best this is an ugly way to buff india.

Obviously any buff is a nerf to everything else. But the point is 600w just fucking sucks for india. It's one of their weakest age 2 shipments*. It's like a 500w shipment for another civ. Why do you want it to remain shit? I'm not sure what kind of games you're watching if you see people sending 600w over wood trickle...
Buffing it to 700w means india might be able to hit some better timings in colonial for example, or get stagecoach more easily, or whatever. It adds options.

[chronique]

It's like a 500w shipment for another civ.

Why exactly?

[Hazza54321]

It's like a 500w shipment for another civ.

Why exactly?

becuase india gather wood much faster than other civs

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah india gathers wood 15% faster

[Garja]

6 sepoy card is way too good lol
700x crates is okish I guess but seems like they wanted to put a limit to the shipment VS value as they come with an extra vill. The neg xp is not quite as harsh as the German one.

[RefluxSemantic]

Garja has a good point. Actually if you ignore the bonus villager, all age 2 india shipments seem pretty bad. 300 export is not really a BO shipment for other asian civs, the large trickle is a 4 villager shipment and 5 sepoys seems dinstinctly mediocre compared to other unit shipments (3 hussars are worth quite a bit more for example, and so are 8 bows/8 pikes, even 6 musks are worth more). It seems part of the design that, ignoring the added villager, india shipments are pretty bad.

[Garja]

Unit shipments in colonial are generally 600 resources with very few exception (mostly TWC civs) and 5 sepoy is that much.
600w and 600g are so on purpose. It's a matter of whether that's deserved or not.

[SoldieR]

If india is just considered "slow" then why not remove extra xp req for shipments and leave everything else.

PS: I believe age 2 india is much better than people think

[Mitoe]

They are on purpose, but it doesn't really make sense to have the shipment penalty on top of making the shipments weaker.

6 Sepoy is comparable to shipments like 10 mace and 5 cossacks.

[Peachrocks]

The debate has to be whether early Sepoys die in two hits to TC fire or not.

If this isn’t desirable then increasing their HP again has to be the option. If increasing their HP means negatively effecting later Sepoy then couldn’t you lower their attack stats in return for a roughly equal HP increase? Or is there some magic number with their attack as well?

5 Sepoy is a very solid shipment honestly. As for their trickles, keep in mind these are popless, constant and unraidable, though upgrades have no effect on it. Less of an issue in terms of scale when it comes to India though because they get two wood upgrades for free.

[dansil92]

I like all the changes mitoe has laid out

[Imperial Noob]

Or is there some magic number with their attack as well?

25 damage kills musketeers in 6 shots; 24 or less does not.

[Hazza54321]

aswell as a vill