EP9: AZTEC

[Mitoe]

Reverted from previous patches:
Arrow Knight population cost reduced to 1 (from 2); ranged [not siege] attack range decreased to 28 (from 30); speed increased to 4 (from 3.75)

"5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners

- War Hut Travois build-rate decreased to 1.5 (from 2)
- "The Shaman" council member increased to 2 (from 1) War Hut Travois for Colonial Age; Hut attack and hitpoints bonus decreased to 0% (from 10%) for Colonial, increased to 20% (from 10%) for Industrial, and to 30% (from 20%) for Imperial ages, respectively



CANCELLED - - "The Shaman" council member now also decreases unit train speed by 10% in all ages (includes Warrior Priests, but not Skull Knights)
Hopefully making this more relevant while less-broken than the current 2 War hut travois.


- Warrior Priests no longer cost population
Gives a bit more flexibility and saves 100w on population overall once all 10 are up. Also compensates for Arrow Knights' return to 2 population in the late game.


CANCELLED - - "Smoking Mirror" shipment now grants 20% speed (down from 35%); moved to Discovery Age
Nerfing a gimmicky & unhealthy playstyle. Also frees up an extra slot in the Fortress Age for a more diversified deck.


- "Temple of Xipe Totec" shipment no longer increases Coyote Runner ranged resistance by 0.1 [REVERT]; now grants 12 Coyote Runners (up from 11).
- "Coyote Combat" shipment now increases ranged resistance by 0.1
Aztec currently struggle to age to Fortress, but also do not scale well enough in late Colonial to combat other civilizations in late Colonial or who can age to Fortress themselves. This should give them a bit more power in mid-late Colonial, and should hopefully be offset by the small nerf to their all-in with the 5 Coyote Shipment revert. If this turns out to be too strong we will look into alternatives.


Improved Fortress Military Shipments
- "11 Macehualtin" increasd to 12 (840 resources)
- "7 Coyote Runner" increased to 8 (880 resources)
- "8 Puma Spearmen" increased to 9 (900 resources)
- "6 Arrow Knight" increased to 7 (875 resources)

- 3 Skull Knight shipment increased to 4
- 4 Skull Knight shipment increased to 6; now costs 350 food to send

Providing more flexibility with the Fortress Age shipments, as these were all quite low value shipments.

[Garja]

Train time buff is more of a TAD type of bonus imo, don't like it too much. The main problem in any case is that it isn't even a bonus early on becuase Aztecs already struggle to complete coyote batches for example (less so with the slow age option, true that, but still). And aztecs also have 2 cards + fertility to speed up unit production so it is also redundant. Honestly wh/nh hp/atk buff makes sense and is probably just fine.

WP no longer cost population: hmm not too drastic but Idk if I like it or not.

Smoking mirror I think it's fine the way it is. It's supposed to be that fast to be any good and the resulting speed is ideal to mix the WC with the fastest aztecs units to do raiding stuff and still get the xp + snare. As for the unhealty playstyle idk, Sioux does the exact same and Iro would also put the WC in front if its bonus wasn't so valuable. It's just the intended use of the WC and the same thing happens with the China monk.

The coyote combat card is clearly too good with 0.1% rr. Let's face it the rr buff is already questionable for how good it is. Having it on a gold card at least makes it more mid/late game oriented. Coyote combat already provides 2 buffs and is often sent as 4-5th card in colonial.

As for unit shipment buffs I guess it's all ok, except skull knight food thing which is unecessarily unusual imo. I guess 5SK is too good but then just don't touch those two. Btw 7JPK is quite a lot of resources considering that shadow tech unit shipments are normally worth around 900 resources. Also Aztecs already have 10 coyo and 13 maces which are worth around 1k.

[edeholland]

Warrior Priests no longer cost population doesn't affect the early game too much but is a necessary buff for their (very) late game, I like it.

[Mitoe]

Train time buff is more of a TAD type of bonus imo, don't like it too much. The main problem in any case is that it isn't even a bonus early on becuase Aztecs already struggle to complete coyote batches for example (less so with the slow age option, true that, but still). And aztecs also have 2 cards + fertility to speed up unit production so it is also redundant. Honestly wh/nh hp/atk buff makes sense and is probably just fine.

You mean increasing the attack/hp boost from 10% to 15 or 20%?

Smoking mirror I think it's fine the way it is. It's supposed to be that fast to be any good and the resulting speed is ideal to mix the WC with the fastest aztecs units to do raiding stuff and still get the xp + snare. As for the unhealty playstyle idk, Sioux does the exact same and Iro would also put the WC in front if its bonus wasn't so valuable. It's just the intended use of the WC and the same thing happens with the China monk.

Idk. The Sioux Warchief gets countered by heavy infantry and dragoons, and doesn't have cover mode. The Aztec Warchief doesn't have a counter aside from spies, and also has a very large amount of hp with War chief dance on top of reviving very quickly. It's almost impossible to counter this IMO. Chinese Monk is strong but once he's down he's down for a few minutes.

The coyote combat card is clearly too good with 0.1% rr. Let's face it the rr buff is already questionable for how good it is. Having it on a gold card at least makes it more mid/late game oriented. Coyote combat already provides 2 buffs and is often sent as 4-5th card in colonial.

Yeah it definitely might be.

As for unit shipment buffs I guess it's all ok, except skull knight food thing which is unecessarily unusual imo. I guess 5SK is too good but then just don't touch those two. Btw 7JPK is quite a lot of resources considering that shadow tech unit shipments are normally worth around 900 resources. Also Aztecs already have 10 coyo and 13 maces which are worth around 1k.

Yeah, 7 JPK is a lot. Could just not make that change. I kinda feel like it still won't be very useful though.

[Garja]

You mean increasing the attack/hp boost from 10% to 15 or 20%?

I mean the original buff. Even tough it is barely any useful it's the design choice that makes the most sense with the age up option and the civ overall.

Idk. The Sioux Warchief gets countered by heavy infantry and dragoons, and doesn't have cover mode. The Aztec Warchief doesn't have a counter aside from spies, and also has a very large amount of hp with War chief dance on top of reviving very quickly. It's almost impossible to counter this IMO. Chinese Monk is strong but once he's down he's down for a few minutes.

Being countered by goons is something we arbitrarily decided exactly for the "unhealty playstyle" reason. In theory all heroes in the game only have the general infantry/cav tag. This ensure they get countered only by some unit types, in the case of Sioux WC by pike type units. As for the Chinese/Aztec WC it's lancer type units and artillery. I don't think it's impossible to counter it, just annoying but lot of things are and I don't think we should change literally everything that is dubbed "unhealty".

Yeah, 7 JPK is a lot. Could just not make that change. I kinda feel like it still won't be very useful though.

I have builds where I even have the 5JPK infinite card (in place of the 6JPK). It's not really a matter of how many but rather if JPKs are any good for the situation.

[Lukas_L99]

I have builds where I even have the 5JPK infinite card (in place of the 6JPK). It's not really a matter of how many but rather if JPKs are any good for the situation.

Do you have any recs where JPK are useful other than little trolly games?

[Mitoe]

You mean increasing the attack/hp boost from 10% to 15 or 20%?

I mean the original buff. Even tough it is barely any useful it's the design choice that makes the most sense with the age up option and the civ overall.

I'll remove the change for now.

Idk. The Sioux Warchief gets countered by heavy infantry and dragoons, and doesn't have cover mode. The Aztec Warchief doesn't have a counter aside from spies, and also has a very large amount of hp with War chief dance on top of reviving very quickly. It's almost impossible to counter this IMO. Chinese Monk is strong but once he's down he's down for a few minutes.

Being countered by goons is something we arbitrarily decided exactly for the "unhealty playstyle" reason. In theory all heroes in the game only have the general infantry/cav tag. This ensure they get countered only by some unit types, in the case of Sioux WC by pike type units. As for the Chinese/Aztec WC it's lancer type units and artillery. I don't think it's impossible to counter it, just annoying but lot of things are and I don't think we should change literally everything that is dubbed "unhealty".

I don't want to sound biased here, but you have played against it very much? It's one of the dumbest things in this game. I don't see why Aztec's mid and late-game should be dependent on having a nearly unkillable Warchief with 6.5 speed.

If people are really against this we can revert it, but I feel like the majority of people have 0 fun playing against this.

Yeah, 7 JPK is a lot. Could just not make that change. I kinda feel like it still won't be very useful though.

I have builds where I even have the 5JPK infinite card (in place of the 6JPK). It's not really a matter of how many but rather if JPKs are any good for the situation.

Reverted for now.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Train time buff is more of a TAD type of bonus imo, don't like it too much. The main problem in any case is that it isn't even a bonus early on becuase Aztecs already struggle to complete coyote batches for example (less so with the slow age option, true that, but still). And aztecs also have 2 cards + fertility to speed up unit production so it is also redundant. Honestly wh/nh hp/atk buff makes sense and is probably just fine.

When you slow age up you don't struggle to complete coyote batches actually. Fast age up will still be the standard option so it's not a very relevant change.

WP no longer cost population: hmm not too drastic but Idk if I like it or not.

I guess the argument is that you have +10 free pop in late game, which is good now that arrow knights cost 2 pop. I don't think that it's very relevant in early game anyway.

Smoking mirror I think it's fine the way it is. It's supposed to be that fast to be any good and the resulting speed is ideal to mix the WC with the fastest aztecs units to do raiding stuff and still get the xp + snare. As for the unhealty playstyle idk, Sioux does the exact same and Iro would also put the WC in front if its bonus wasn't so valuable. It's just the intended use of the WC and the same thing happens with the China monk.

Ye, I also disagree with this one. After the cover mode nerf and healing dance nerfs, it's a tier 2 option (especially with the unit shipment buffs). Now it's just going to be bad, which sucks.

The coyote combat card is clearly too good with 0.1% rr. Let's face it the rr buff is already questionable for how good it is. Having it on a gold card at least makes it more mid/late game oriented. Coyote combat already provides 2 buffs and is often sent as 4-5th card in colonial.

The card is now very good but Aztec needed a buff to their late colonial imo. They're supposed to be a colonial civ, but still they lose to the other colonial civs if they reach late colonial with an even army (India, Japan, Iro, Brit, Otto, Russia).

As for unit shipment buffs I guess it's all ok, except skull knight food thing which is unecessarily unusual imo. I guess 5SK is too good but then just don't touch those two. Btw 7JPK is quite a lot of resources considering that shadow tech unit shipments are normally worth around 900 resources. Also Aztecs already have 10 coyo and 13 maces which are worth around 1k.

[chronique]

Yeah, 7 JPK is a lot. Could just not make that change. I kinda feel like it still won't be very useful though.

Its not an option to just buff JPK himself?

[Mitoe]

Yeah, 7 JPK is a lot. Could just not make that change. I kinda feel like it still won't be very useful though.

Its not an option to just buff JPK himself?

JPK have already been buffed on a previous version of EP:

- Jaguar Prowl Knight hand attack increased to 20 (from 18); hitpoints increased to 240 (from 230)

[Garja]

I have builds where I even have the 5JPK infinite card (in place of the 6JPK). It's not really a matter of how many but rather if JPKs are any good for the situation.

Do you have any recs where JPK are useful other than little trolly games?

Aztec mirror when doing coyo semi with 10WP, done that vs many players, including Diarouga. Also vs China doing coyo+jpk strats. Also when doing low eco FF vs civs like otto/spain where you basically just make maces and send unit shipments. Other than that not very useful.

[Garja]

Train time buff is more of a TAD type of bonus imo, don't like it too much. The main problem in any case is that it isn't even a bonus early on becuase Aztecs already struggle to complete coyote batches for example (less so with the slow age option, true that, but still). And aztecs also have 2 cards + fertility to speed up unit production so it is also redundant. Honestly wh/nh hp/atk buff makes sense and is probably just fine.

When you slow age up you don't struggle to complete coyote batches actually. Fast age up will still be the standard option so it's not a very relevant change.

WP no longer cost population: hmm not too drastic but Idk if I like it or not.

I guess the argument is that you have +10 free pop in late game, which is good now that arrow knights cost 2 pop. I don't think that it's very relevant in early game anyway.

Smoking mirror I think it's fine the way it is. It's supposed to be that fast to be any good and the resulting speed is ideal to mix the WC with the fastest aztecs units to do raiding stuff and still get the xp + snare. As for the unhealty playstyle idk, Sioux does the exact same and Iro would also put the WC in front if its bonus wasn't so valuable. It's just the intended use of the WC and the same thing happens with the China monk.

Ye, I also disagree with this one. After the cover mode nerf and healing dance nerfs, it's a tier 2 option (especially with the unit shipment buffs). Now it's just going to be bad, which sucks.

The coyote combat card is clearly too good with 0.1% rr. Let's face it the rr buff is already questionable for how good it is. Having it on a gold card at least makes it more mid/late game oriented. Coyote combat already provides 2 buffs and is often sent as 4-5th card in colonial.

The card is now very good but Aztec needed a buff to their late colonial imo. They're supposed to be a colonial civ, but still they lose to the other colonial civs if they reach late colonial with an even army (India, Japan, Iro, Brit, Otto, Russia).

As for unit shipment buffs I guess it's all ok, except skull knight food thing which is unecessarily unusual imo. I guess 5SK is too good but then just don't touch those two. Btw 7JPK is quite a lot of resources considering that shadow tech unit shipments are normally worth around 900 resources. Also Aztecs already have 10 coyo and 13 maces which are worth around 1k.

Is cover mode removed for the Aztec WC? I don't think so, right?
Also are those reverts actual? Why are they crossed out? Why is AK pop cost being reverted, the unit is extremely pop inefficient for its stats.
Anyway Aztecs don't really lose to Brits, Otto or EP Iro late colonial. Aztecs don't really need that buff in colonial imo. Maybe if also xbows are buffed then ye, there is one more reason to have 0.2% rr coyos.

[Mitoe]

Train time buff is more of a TAD type of bonus imo, don't like it too much. The main problem in any case is that it isn't even a bonus early on becuase Aztecs already struggle to complete coyote batches for example (less so with the slow age option, true that, but still). And aztecs also have 2 cards + fertility to speed up unit production so it is also redundant. Honestly wh/nh hp/atk buff makes sense and is probably just fine.

When you slow age up you don't struggle to complete coyote batches actually. Fast age up will still be the standard option so it's not a very relevant change.

WP no longer cost population: hmm not too drastic but Idk if I like it or not.

I guess the argument is that you have +10 free pop in late game, which is good now that arrow knights cost 2 pop. I don't think that it's very relevant in early game anyway.

Smoking mirror I think it's fine the way it is. It's supposed to be that fast to be any good and the resulting speed is ideal to mix the WC with the fastest aztecs units to do raiding stuff and still get the xp + snare. As for the unhealty playstyle idk, Sioux does the exact same and Iro would also put the WC in front if its bonus wasn't so valuable. It's just the intended use of the WC and the same thing happens with the China monk.

Ye, I also disagree with this one. After the cover mode nerf and healing dance nerfs, it's a tier 2 option (especially with the unit shipment buffs). Now it's just going to be bad, which sucks.

The coyote combat card is clearly too good with 0.1% rr. Let's face it the rr buff is already questionable for how good it is. Having it on a gold card at least makes it more mid/late game oriented. Coyote combat already provides 2 buffs and is often sent as 4-5th card in colonial.

The card is now very good but Aztec needed a buff to their late colonial imo. They're supposed to be a colonial civ, but still they lose to the other colonial civs if they reach late colonial with an even army (India, Japan, Iro, Brit, Otto, Russia).

As for unit shipment buffs I guess it's all ok, except skull knight food thing which is unecessarily unusual imo. I guess 5SK is too good but then just don't touch those two. Btw 7JPK is quite a lot of resources considering that shadow tech unit shipments are normally worth around 900 resources. Also Aztecs already have 10 coyo and 13 maces which are worth around 1k.

Is cover mode removed for the Aztec WC? I don't think so, right?
Also are those reverts actual? Why are they crossed out? Why is AK pop cost being reverted, the unit is extremely pop inefficient for its stats.
Anyway Aztecs don't really lose to Brits, Otto or EP Iro late colonial. Aztecs don't really need that buff in colonial imo. Maybe if also xbows are buffed then ye, there is one more reason to have 0.2% rr coyos.

He means that the warchief no longer bugs to have full speed & attack in cover mode after revival.

Yes, reverts are actual. Every single person I talked to preferred a full Arrow Knight revert over having 1 pop, 4 speed, and 28 range (instead of 30), despite my best efforts to convince them otherwise.

[dansil92]

I like these changes too.
0 pop wp will allow 5v first builds a little more wiggle room, frees up lategame pop and saves 100w early

Arrow knight revert is welcome. There was literally nothing azzy could do vs heavy cannons this latest patch. Also 6 arrow knights was barely a colonial shipment, the +1 is nice.

I'm still pretty sure JPK would be better suited to be a full on melee skirm rather than this mediocre halb nonsense but that would require extensive testing to make sure it doesnt become too op

[Hachrt]

- 3 Skull Knight shipment increased to 4
- 4 Skull Knight shipment increased to 6; now costs 350 food to send

Rather than changing two cards wouldn't it just be cleaner to change the 3 Skull Knight shipment and say "Replaced 3 Skull Knight Shipment with a 6 Skull Knight Shipment which costs 350 food to send"
Or are you making this change with Home City progression in mind?

[Squamiger]

i feel like smoking mirror being pretty good is the only thing that lets you survive when you try the aztec FI, but maybe I do it wrong

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ye for sure. After the smoking mirror nerf, Aztec FI will be totally unviable, while it's not stronger (and probably worse) than a spain/otto revolt atm.

[Mitoe]

Would it not be better to try to buff the FI some other way than to rely on a broken unit?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Would it not be better to try to buff the FI some other way than to rely on a broken unit?

And how would you do that ? It's like saying you want to buff the revo some other way than relying on imperial hussars.
There are so many lame things in the game atm, but there is no reason to nerf things that are not viable in competitive games. When is the last time you saw smoking mirror win a game that wasn't already over at high level ? Certainly not after the healing dance nerf.

Why do we nerf the azzy FI to the ground, but not the Otto ff ? It's a bigger issue regarding both balance and design honestly.

[Mitoe]

Not sure. I was hoping you’d have some ideas

[[Armag] diarouga]

Not sure. I was hoping you’d have some ideas

The FI relies 90% on the warchief. Maces are here to add some extra dps, and skull knights protect the WC against the cav, the WC is by far the most important unit.

I guess you could add an infinite 2 heavy canon shipments and make mace autoupgrade to champion to make the FI viable without the WC but realistically you can't expect to win with only maces that you need to upgrade. They get demolished by artillery, and hit and run'd forever by skirms.

Atm in FI wars, you can just mass heavy canons with nilla civs, and the WC dies before reaching hand combat, even with smoking mirror. You can also just kill the Aztec FI with a fortress timing, it's really not a balance issue.

[Garja]

Ye for sure. After the smoking mirror nerf, Aztec FI will be totally unviable, while it's not stronger (and probably worse) than a spain/otto revolt atm.

It's still viable the same way and it should beat revo, even tho you don't need to go FI to beat that.

[Zeke]

Keep smoking mirror the same while it also adds HI tag to the war chief

[dansil92]

Keep smoking mirror the same while it also adds HI tag to the war chief

Because of course azzy needs a 5th unit hard countered by skirms

[Zeke]

tbh 30 range is important for AK to outrange most counter-infantry artilleries