EP9: JAPAN

[Peachrocks]

Revert back to 1.01a?

You would like that wouldn't you ya jap lamer

Game was super balanced. Every MU felt winnable. Granted, we only played Jap mirror, but still, every MU felt winnable!

Lol . I remember some of the gems you used to say commenting on recorded games back then. Like the one I posted already.

[Darwin_]

What exactly are the main qualms people have with Japan currently. I feel like the perennial arguments that they are a little too slow and scale a little too well are still true, but how exactly do we want to solve that? 500f/300w start sounds like a great change that will help them not be so slow, and the golden pavilion fix I mentioned would help their scaling.

I think this goes for literally all civilizations at this point, and japan is no different: I think politician/tribal council/wonder changes would be incredibly beneficial for the game. I don't think every age up option needs to be practical all the time, but it would be nice to see 3 politicians/council members/wonders be practical for every civ at most age ups. For Japan, I think that could be accomplished with something like this:

- Great Buddha gives 2, 4, 6, 10 Naginata riders (up from 1, 3, 5, 9); makes the number of units given on par with other wonders and politicians

- "Informers" ability cool down decreased to 150 seconds, up from 300; makes a useless ability somewhat more usable

- Shogunate now gives 400xp when advancing to colonial (up from 300); makes shogunate actually a fairly compelling option for colonial age. 400xp as well as 5% military cost reduction (which actually means 10% more units) seems about on par with the 200e and eco bonus from the toshogu, better in low shrine scenarios but clearly worse when fully booming.

[harcha]

What exactly are the main qualms people have with Japan currently. I feel like the perennial arguments that they are a little too slow and scale a little too well are still true, but how exactly do we want to solve that? 500f/300w start sounds like a great change that will help them not be so slow, and the golden pavilion fix I mentioned would help their scaling.

I think this goes for literally all civilizations at this point, and japan is no different: I think politician/tribal council/wonder changes would be incredibly beneficial for the game. I don't think every age up option needs to be practical all the time, but it would be nice to see 3 politicians/council members/wonders be practical for every civ at most age ups. For Japan, I think that could be accomplished with something like this:

- Great Buddha gives 2, 4, 6, 10 Naginata riders (up from 1, 3, 5, 9); makes the number of units given on par with other wonders and politicians

- "Informers" ability cool down decreased to 150 seconds, up from 300; makes a useless ability somewhat more usable

- Shogunate now gives 400xp when advancing to colonial (up from 300); makes shogunate actually a fairly compelling option for colonial age. 400xp as well as 5% military cost reduction (which actually means 10% more units) seems about on par with the 200e and eco bonus from the toshogu, better in low shrine scenarios but clearly worse when fully booming.

I think there is something to be said about boosting completely unused mechanics in this game like "informers" or "transcendence"
i don't think shogunate needs to be boosted. japan already has many ways of generating xp, they really don't need more xp cheese (especially assuming fixed 300w start)

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Is controversy necessarily bad? Is it possible to make yumi die to cav?

It's complicated, because yumis are insane in late game, but you don't really want to nerf them in early game. Nerfing the age range+HP shipment was tried at one point, but it made that shipment useless, and you could abuse skirms vs yumis which isn't ideal.

Simple idea : nerf very slightly yumis honoured and disciplined upgrades (decrease the bonus by a couple percentage points). This does not affect the early game, nerf the late game stats, and people will still research the upgrades if the nerf is correctly done (ie small enough).

[Hazza54321]

Maybe just keep it as simple as yumi att to 15% and clubs 65 export

[Qosashvili93]

Just yabasume attack range reverte?

[Darwin_]

Maybe just keep it as simple as yumi att to 15% and clubs 65 export

65 export clubs is a great idea, I hadn't even thought about that. But yumi attack is by no means OP in colonial, it's only insane until late fortress when it becomes effectively a 32% attack upgrade with the pavilion aura. Better to fix the pavilion aura to work off base attack, then yumi's would be just as strong in colonial but weaker in fortress.

Attack w/ 20% yumi attack and upgraded stats 10% pavilion:
- Age 2 (no pavilion): 22.8
- Age 3 (w/ pavilion): 29.3
- Age 4 (w/ pavilion): 35.5

Attack w/ 20% yumi attack and base stats 10% pavilion:
- Age 2 (no pavilion): 22.8
- Age 3 (w/ pavilion): 28.5
- Age 4 (w/ pavilion): 34.2

Attack w/ 15% yumi attack and upgraded stats 10% pavilion:
- Age 2 (no pavilion): 21.8
- Age 3 (w/ pavilion): 28.2
- Age 4 (w/ pavilion): 34.5

Of course, these numbers differences are pretty small, but without fixing the pavilion and nerfing yumi attack instead, yumi lose 1 attack in colonial but keep essentially the same attack in fortress, when what we are trying to nerf is their fortress strength, not their colonial strength. If we keep yumi attack the same but fix the pavilion, yumi will have the same attack in colonial, but 1 less attack in fortress, which seems to me to be fixing the problem we are trying to solve, i.e. yumis' insane scaling ability. Fixing the pavilion is even more pronounced in industrial.

Sorry for the long post

[Garja]

Nagi card nerf is enough imo.

[Darwin_]

Nagi's aren't a problem though. Nerfing the nagi HP card is a pointless change that just makes the patch notes longer and doesn't actually solve any problems.

[harcha]

Nagi's aren't a problem though. Nerfing the nagi HP card is a pointless change that just makes the patch notes longer and doesn't actually solve any problems.

oh it's a problem for sure

[dansil92]

Nagi hp is basically a free win card in several matchups, its very strong

[knusch]

Maybe just keep it as simple as yumi att to 15% and clubs 65 export

what have these clubmen done to u, poor boy?

[VictorXV]

1 Is it ok to nerf Nagis HP? Is a 30%HP card for one unit when in most cases is 15%HP or attack for 2 or even 3 units (30%/45% in total)

2 I read that you tried to buff yabusame but it didnt work. I tried to do some math so see which multipliers will work with tweaked base stats but in the end I couldnt come up with something good and I think the unit stats do their job. So ... what if instead you decrease coin cost by 10?

Going further with Yabusame idea, you could make the Yabusame 20% Attack card turn into a Yabusame 15% Combat Card and In-Yo Rush could be 25%Attack with no added multiplier (it would be like Nagis 25%HP, which I dont agree but you know better) and the 9x multiplier will be there by default in the base stats.

and you could also give them the Ranged Cavalry Caracole tech so Yabusame could get closer to artillery better?

In the end I will be happy with just the -10coin cost for Yabusame. I am just throwing out ideas.

[[Armag] diarouga]

1 Is it ok to nerf Nagis HP? Is a 30%HP card for one unit when in most cases is 15%HP or attack for 2 or even 3 units (30%/45% in total)

2 I read that you tried to buff yabusame but it didnt work. I tried to do some math so see which multipliers will work with tweaked base stats but in the end I couldnt come up with something good and I think the unit stats do their job. So ... what if instead you decrease coin cost by 10?

Going further with Yabusame idea, you could make the Yabusame 20% Attack card turn into a Yabusame 15% Combat Card and In-Yo Rush could be 25%Attack with no added multiplier (it would be like Nagis 25%HP, which I dont agree but you know better) and the 9x multiplier will be there by default in the base stats.

and you could also give them the Ranged Cavalry Caracole tech so Yabusame could get closer to artillery better?

In the end I will be happy with just the -10coin cost for Yabusame. I am just throwing out ideas.

1. HP is more important than attack for hand cav, not even close. I'd say that 25% HP is better than 15% attack and HP actually.
30% HP wasn't a must-nerf, but the idea is that Japan is too strong in late game once you get the upgrade shipments, and nerfing the naginata shipment doesn't really affect the middle game.

2. The issue isn't that the yabusame work didn't work, it's that it was simply unnecessary. Yabusame are fine as they are. They're great at countering artillery and you train them if your opponent makes canons, you don't else. There is no issue with that, Japan doesn't need to be good at everything.

3. Changing the 20% attack card into a 15% combat is barely a buff actually, because attack is what matters, as you need to snipe the falcs fast.

4. Adding caracole was discussed, but same issue as above : yabusame become too good and artillery isn't viable anymore.

[Riotcoke]

Adding caracole would also make Yojimbo even more OP.

[chris1089]

Adding caracole would also make Yojimbo even more OP.

Trust you to know about that.

[VictorXV]

1. HP is more important than attack for hand cav, not even close. I'd say that 25% HP is better than 15% attack and HP actually.
30% HP wasn't a must-nerf, but the idea is that Japan is too strong in late game once you get the upgrade shipments, and nerfing the naginata shipment doesn't really affect the middle game.

2. The issue isn't that the yabusame work didn't work, it's that it was simply unnecessary. Yabusame are fine as they are. They're great at countering artillery and you train them if your opponent makes canons, you don't else. There is no issue with that, Japan doesn't need to be good at everything.

3. Changing the 20% attack card into a 15% combat is barely a buff actually, because attack is what matters, as you need to snipe the falcs fast.

4. Adding caracole was discussed, but same issue as above : yabusame become too good and artillery isn't viable anymore.

Thanks for the reply. My only serious point was about decreasing -10 coin. That way I could use more Yabusames to counter heavy cav. Should I use Ashis or Samurais instead? what if the opponent makes skirms? I thought Yabusames were also supossed to help countering HC ...

Adding caracole would also make Yojimbo even more OP.

Trust you to know about that.

forgot about it. My bad.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Just make nagis or ashis against heavy cav, yabusame aren't supposed to be good at that, and that's why buffing them was a terrible decision.

[VictorXV]

Just make nagis or ashis against heavy cav, yabusame aren't supposed to be good at that, and that's why buffing them was a terrible decision.

OK.

Have you guys considered an 80 villager limit? Sometimes in late game I run out of resources and 20 shrines are not 24 villagers ...

[[Armag] diarouga]

Just make nagis or ashis against heavy cav, yabusame aren't supposed to be good at that, and that's why buffing them was a terrible decision.

OK.

Have you guys considered an 80 villager limit? Sometimes in late game I run out of resources and 20 shrines are not 24 villagers ...

No.

[dansil92]

Yabusame are fine vs heavy cav. They're just not nearly as cost effective as ashi. With Pavillion + default vet up they're roughly equal to an fortress erk in dps against cav. The difference is of course pop and cost, not that they're inherently bad

[cosuco]

yabusame cant kill heavy canon xD
what about team pioneer?
it should change pioneer
and , i want to buff yojinbo

[chris1089]

On civ design this is so stupid. I just played a game where I had 4 TP stagecoach and took all his shrines off the map. I then cleaned up his army out of position. I age and kill big shrine with falcs. I then clean out a load of shrines he has in his base whilst massing cuirs and skirms. I get 3 TC and arsenal upgrades. I still lose the game because he sits in base under his cm TCs and gets to 4. (I built culv to kill the flaming arrows and he couldn't micro his clubs properly but he still won. This is on RE, so I don't know what is different once I have shrine down, but seems very lame to me.

Essentially I think I outplayed him 95% of the game but still lost.

[juhjuh]

On civ design this is so stupid. I just played a game where I had 4 TP stagecoach and took all his shrines off the map. I then cleaned up his army out of position. I age and kill big shrine with falcs. I then clean out a load of shrines he has in his base whilst massing cuirs and skirms. I get 3 TC and arsenal upgrades. I still lose the game because he sits in base under his cm TCs and gets to 4. (I built culv to kill the flaming arrows and he couldn't micro his clubs properly but he still won. This is on RE, so I don't know what is different once I have shrine down, but seems very lame to me.

Essentially I think I outplayed him 95% of the game but still lost.

you dident if you lost XD

[Kaiserklein]

You can totally outplay for 95% of the game and still lose to japan yeah. All it takes is one bad fight