EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Discussions for the last iteration of EP.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

  • Quote

Post by Mitoe »

So @Interjection and I went through all of the native tribes and made some changes to make them more viable (without making them broken, I hope). Before I list the exact changes to each tribe, I'll try to explain our thought process behind each of the changes we made.

1) Unit Cost/Stats: We've tried to cost each unit at about 10% more expensive than its counterpart. This is for a few reasons. First, natives don't cost population. Second, the Fortress-age upgrade gives an extra 5% attack/hp compared to normal veteran upgrades. Third, there are useful techs at each native post, so that should be factored into consideration when balancing natives. Ultimately, the goal here is to make them useful in Colonial if you need that specific unit type, not because the unit is as strong or stronger than your own units. For example, if you want an archer unit that counters heavy infantry pretty hard you can train Seminole or Tupi, but it will be slightly weaker than its cousin, the Cetan Bow, until Fortress.

There is one exception. Heavy hand-infantry like the Mayan Spearman will be costed to be very similar to pikemen, rather than weaker. Since their unit type tends to scale poorly compared to other units, and is also getting nerfed in other ways as I will explain next.

2) Native Rushes: Naturally when buffing natives we were concerned about making native rushes too strong. Some matchups might require that you construct a forward base to be competitive, and if you don't have the time to construct your military building(s) before natives are on top of you then it could be problematic. To account for this we've normalized unit train speed with normal units. In general this means a slight increase in train speed for native units.

Additionally, we've reduced the siege on most native warriors to prevent this sort of cheese from being too strong and also give us some more room to give them real combat stats.

3) Build Limits: Most native units have ok build limits, but some just don't feel great. We've increased the built limit for a few natives to make them feel more worthwhile of an investment, especially when you want to upgrade them.


So without further ado, lets get to some of the changes!

General Changes:

- Native "Warrior Societies" & "Discipline Training" upgrades cost decreased to 100w 75c (from 200w 150c)
- Accuracy mechanic removed from all native warriors

- Spy & Ninja native warrior multiplier removed

TO-DO LIST:
- Adjust Native Treaties shipment to compensate for any cost changes
- Adjust Native "mercenary" homecity shipments
- Might "Native Warrior Combat" be too strong now?
- Is the native guard upgrade too strong?



NATIVE TRIBES

ZAPOTEC

Image
The Zapotec Lightning Warrior has pretty pathetic stats. It's supposed to be heavy hand-infantry used to counter Cavalry, but it only has 11 attack with a 2x multiplier (just barely over half what a pikeman does), 4.5 speed, and costs a buttload more than a pike.

Looking at the unit in game, it has very similar design, feel, and stats to the Jaguar Prowler Knight, so we've decided to embrace that and turn him into a native warrior version of the JPK. He won't be able to stealth, but should still offer some interesting options to players!


- Hand attack increased to 12 (from 11)
- Cavalry multiplier increased to 2.5 (from 2)
- Light Infantry multiplier increased to 2 (from 1.5)
- 2.5x Heavy Infantry multiplier added

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)
- Siege attack reduced to 24 (from 30)

TECHS
- No changes; might consider a small nerf to "Zapotec Cult of the Dead" (+20% Hand-Infantry Attack), because it also affects Coyote-Runner type units.


MAYANS

Image
The Maya Holcan Spearman, like the Zapotec, have pretty pathetic stats. We are increasing their damage and hp slightly.

- Build Limit increased to 17 (from 15)
- Hand attack increased to 10 (from 8)
- Hitpoints increased to 185 (from 180 - no longer dies in 2 hits to TC fire)
- "Siege Trooper" and "Siege Unit" tags removed

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)
- Siege Attack decreased to 24 (from 45)
- Siege Attack ROF decreased to 3 (from 4)

TECHS
- "Maya Cotton Armor" (+20% Hand Infantry Hitpoints) cost reduced to 250w 250c (from 300w 300c)
Also affects Coyote Runner type units, will be watching this one in the future as a result. May need to be tweaked to 15%.
- "Maya Calendar" (Hunts & Mills 10% faster) now also affects berries


NOOTKA

Image
Nootka are one of the more viable native units at the moment for rushing, but not as useful for combat. We're tweaking their stats a bit to make them less cheesy and more solid of a unit.

- Build Limit increased to 16 (from 15)
- Hand Attack increased to 12 (from 10)

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)
- Siege Attack reduced to 28 (from 30)

TECHS
- "Loyal Nootka Warchief" now spawns a Nootka Warchief. Enables him to be retrainable at the Nootka Settlement rather than explorer.
It was simply way too expensive to get the Warchief since you needed to get the tech and then train him. It also sucks if you lose your explorer as you cannot retrain him.


CARIB

Image
The Carib Blowgunner is a low-range unit. Pretty cost-inefficient overall. The design of the unit doesn't really work very well, so we decided to adjust its purpose a bit.

- Speed increased to 5 (from 4.5)
- Heavy Infantry & Light Cavalry multiplier removed
- All-Infantry x1.5 multiplier added

- Train speed increased to 30 seconds (from 20)

TECHS
- No changes


SEMINOLE

Image
The Seminole Sharktooth Bowman would not be a bad unit if he had more than 12 range (and the worst setup animation, ever). We're slightly increasing his range and cost, as well as siege range (since this synergizes well with his siege tech).

- Build Limit increased to 16 (from 15)
- Range increased to 16 (from 12)
- Siege range increased to 10 (from 6)
- LOS increased to 18 (from 12)

- Train time increased to 30 (from 20)
- Cost increased to 50f 50w (from 75f 25w)

TECHS
- "Seminole Bowyer" decreased to 15% archer damage (from 20%)
- "Seminole Bowyer" cost decreased to 250w 250c (from 300w 300c)
With the unit and settlement being more useful, it feels a bit risky to keep this already quite useful tech so high.


TUPI

Image
The Tupi has decent stats, but for a unit with such low hitpoints and armour it falls just slightly short of the mark.

- Build Limit increased to 16 (from 15)
- Missing "Archer" tag added
- Range increased to 20 (from 18)
- LOS increased to 22 (from 20)

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)

TECHS
- "Tupi Animal Lore" now also allows cougars to be trained from Explorer


APACHE

Image
Apache Cavalry are actually just copy-paste the same as dragoons, but missing an artillery multiplier, and still has 30% Ranged Resistance. Only small tweaks necessary here.

- Build Limit increased to 9 (from 8)

- Train Time increased to 40 seconds (from 30)

TECHS
- "Apache Warrior Societies" now adds x0.5 multiplier vs Artillery


CHEYENNE

Image
The Cheyenne Rider is a decent unit, crippled by its high wood cost and low resistance. Tweaking the cost and adding a base multiplier vs cavalry to make them a bit more unique.

- Cost changed to 95f 90w (from 40f 110w); Build bounty adjusted accordingly
- Increased Cavalry multiplier to x1.5 (from 1)
- Increased Light Infantry multiplier to x1.25 (from 1)

- Train time increased to 40 seconds (from 30)

TECHS
- "Cheyenne Fury" now increases cavalry multiplier by x1.5 (down from 2)
- "Cheyenne Fury" now increases Light Infantry multiplier by x1 (down from 2)
- "Cheyenne Hunting Grounds" cost increased to 175w 175c (from 150w 150c)


COMANCHE

Image
Comanche are just really bad for their cost. We'll reduce it.

- Cost reduced to 70f 60w (from 70f 80w); Build bounty adjusted accordingly

- Train time increased to 35 seconds (from 30)

TECHS
- No changes


CREE

Image
Cree Trackers actually don't have bad stats, and the settlement has great utility. With buffs to other native warriors, we expect that Cree Trackers may become more common if builds are developed. No changes needed here.

- No changes


HURON

Image
Huron are untrainable until lategame due to their high wood/coin cost.

- Cost changed to 100f 60w (from 50w 100c); Build bounty adjusted accordingly

TECHS
- "Huron Fish Wedding" decreased to 15% fishing/whaling (from 20%)


NAVAJO

Image
The Navajo Rifleman is sold as a low-range skirmisher that can stealth, but this doesn't seem useful at all. This unit seems more like a Shinobi than anything else, and so a Shinobi he shall become.

- Build Limit increased to 16
- Ranged damage increased to 20 (from 11)
- Cavalry, Heavy Infantry, Light Cavalry, and EagleKnight multipliers removed
- Speed while in stealth mode increased to 3.4 (from 2.5)
- Range increased to 14 (from 12)
- Melee damage increased to 11 (from 6)

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)
- Cost increased to 60f 50w (from 60f 40w); Build bounty adjusted accordingly
- x0.75 Villager multiplier added (from 1)

TECHS
- "Navajo Craftsmanship" cost increased to 175f 125w (from 150f 100w)
- "Navajo Weaving" cost decreased to 100w 200c (from 100w 250c)


CHEROKEE

Image
The Cherokee Rifleman actually has decent stats, just needs a small push in the right direction to be useful.

- Build Limit increased to 16 (from 13)

- Train time increased to 30 (from 20)

TECHS
- No Changes


KLAMATH

Image
Copy-paste Cherokee clone with a more useful stat-upgrade available in Fortress.

- Build Limit increased to 15 (from 13)

- Train time increased to 30 (from 20)

TECHS
- No changes


INCA

ImageImage

Huaminca
- Melee attack increased to 15 (from 14) [revert]

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)
- Siege attack decreased to 28 (from 48)
- Siege attack ROF decreased to 3 (from 4)

Bolas Warrior

- Build Limit increased to 10 (from 8)
- Cost decreased to 40f 55w (from 40f 60w)

- Train time increased to 28 seconds (from 20)

TECHS
- No changes


MAPUCHE

Image
For the cost of a Nootka, you get a worse unit. Rather than make him a Nootka clone, we'll change him to be more similar to a Samurai or a Doppelsoldner, since his club looks capable of doing massive area damage, and since it's also usually paired with the Incan settlement, which already has a very similar unit.

- Hitpoints increased to 200 (from 165)
- Melee Resistance increased to 20% (from 10%)
- Melee Attack increased to 18 (from 12)
- 2 Area added (from 0)
- Cavalry multiplier increased to x2.5 (from x2)
- Light Infantry multiplier increased to x1.75 (from x1.5)

- Cost increased to 100f 65w (from 85f 15w); Build bounty adjusted accordingly
- Speed decreased to 4.75 (from 5)
- Siege damage decreased to 26 (from 30)
- Train time increased to 35 (from 20)
- Build Limit decreased to 12 (from 13)

TECHS
- No changes


UDASI

Image
Low range with a huge setup animation makes this unit one of the worst. Increasing its range to compensate.

- Range increased to 14 (from 10)

TECHS
- "Army of the Pure" now only grants Chakram +2 range (from +4)
- "Army of the Pure" cost reduced to 125w 125c (from 300w 300c)
- "Sikh Gurus" cost increased to 130w 130c (from 100w 100c)


JESUIT

Image
Conquistadors are actually almost there. Increasing their damage slightly to put bring them in line.

- Ranged attack increased to 19 (from 17)

- Train time increased to 35 seconds (from 30)

TECHS
- No changes


SHAOLIN

Image
Rattan Shields seem ok, even if their stats are a little bit inefficient for their cost. However, because their train time will be taking a hit, they'll get some small buffs to compensate.

- Build Limit increased to 16 (from 15)
- Melee attack increased to 16 (from 15)

- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)

TECHS
- No changes


ZEN

Image
Sohei are ok, however because their rush & siege damage will be receiving the same treatment as all natives, they could use a small boost.

- Build Limit increased to 16 (from 15)
- Speed increased to 5.25 (from 5)

- Siege attack decreased to 27
- Train time increased to 30 seconds (from 20)

TECHS
- No changes


BHAKTI

Image
Like Rattan Shields, Tiger Claws seem ok. However, for slightly lower speed and less hp, they don't quite get enough compensation.

- Hitpoints increased to 160 (from 150)

TECHS
- No changes


SUFI

Image
War Elephants are tricky to balance because they do not cost population, unlike their nearest cousin, the Mahout. The Sufi Mosque is pretty useful already, so buffs here will be small.

- Build Limit increased to 8 (from 7)
- Infantry multiplier increased to x1.75 (from x1.5); negative heavy-infantry multiplier adjusted accordingly.
User avatar
Great Britain TheNameDaniel
Advanced Player
Donator 01
Posts: 726
Joined: Sep 13, 2016
ESO: danielek
Location: UK

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by TheNameDaniel »

I like these changes.
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by chronique »

Mitoe wrote:Some matchups might require that you construct a forward base to be competitive, and if you don't have the time to construct your military building(s) before natives are on top of you then it could be problematic.
It was realy a probleme? i have never see this situation in tourney.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

chronique wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Some matchups might require that you construct a forward base to be competitive, and if you don't have the time to construct your military building(s) before natives are on top of you then it could be problematic.
It was realy a probleme? i have never see this situation in tourney.
You've probably never seen it because the units were so bad at fighting that the follow up after killing the forward base would have been comical. :P
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I'm concerned about several of these changes :

1) I think you shouldn't buff the mayan pike that much. It's very cheap and imo it should die in 2 TC hit (ie 180 HP).
2) Navajo : - Ranged damage increased to 20 (from 11). It might be too much, start with less maybe ?
3) Mapuche : Same, are you sure you can increase the damage and add area damage at the same time ?
4) Shaolin : Rattans are one of the most viable native units, I don't think it should get a buff tbh, even if the training time is increased.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Cometk »

pretty sure 160 hp tiger claws might turn the indian colonial shipment of them into a tier 1 card, especially if sepoy rush buffs are being considered :biggrin:
Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'm concerned about several of these changes :

1) I think you shouldn't buff the mayan pike that much. It's very cheap and imo it should die in 2 TC hit (ie 180 HP).
2) Navajo : - Ranged damage increased to 20 (from 11). It might be too much, start with less maybe ?
3) Mapuche : Same, are you sure you can increase the damage and add area damage at the same time ?
4) Shaolin : Rattans are one of the most viable native units, I don't think it should get a buff tbh, even if the training time is increased.
1) It does significantly less siege damage now. It's not a good unit by itself, you need to build a composition around it. It also still does less damage to cavalry than a pikeman (30 damage vs a pikeman's 40).

2) They are more expensive and no longer have any multipliers; I think it's fine.

3) They are more expensive and do less siege damage. They will be fine I think.

4) Most viable doesn't mean good. They're ok mostly because you can get units out and into the enemy base so quickly and easily, but if you compare their stats per-cost to a Coyote Runner they are not that good. Definitely might cut the buff though. They have better hp and armour, which are the more useful stats for that type of unit probably.

Edit: Also looks like 16 damage actually does hit some break-points on hussars (2 less hits), but on most other units it doesn't do anything. It is more significant than I expected it to be vs hussars for sure though.
Cometk wrote:pretty sure 160 hp tiger claws might turn the indian colonial shipment of them into a tier 1 card, especially if sepoy rush buffs are being considered :biggrin:
Yeah I was thinking about this. Haven't decided what to do about it yet, but maybe the shipment will be more expensive, or 1 less Tiger Claw and slightly cheaper.
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Peachrocks »

I'd have to run the numbers exactly and compared them to counterparts per villager second cost and as I stated all along I'd rather subtle changes, but I'm not too sure whether this will do much of significance. The Cherokee and Klamath for instance have rather high wood costs which makes them slightly off compared to similar units. Plus the range problems that almost every native unit has kinda hurts its viability. I mean people were talking about how the Gurkha range problem is a thing, natives have a lot worse then that. I mean I'm not saying make it the same but just pointing out something.

Obviously, there's a lot to consider and be cautious of when balancing minor natives, because some civs have been balanced around being weak against certain units. Also it should be pointed out that some of the native warriors are closer to Halberds then pikeman but didnt have the damage that Halbs did and of course had the whole problem almost every melee heavy infantry unit faces. I also was considering the idea of giving some of them ranged resistance just to be different but this was a very cautious idea. Still considering what you did to the Mapuche, any of my ideas feel extremely modest in comparison.

Because you need map control to hold the posts that is the penalty. It means any investment and any cards you send to natives are also tied to the trading post which makes it a massive target. I also in general, dislike the whole thing of certain natives being basically only useful for rushing as well as them basically being your army and I'm not convinced these changes to the rush heavy natives does much here. The whole concept of the native rush has always felt... negative to me but I guess the summer palace style thing that I told Interjection wasn't particularly liked.

The idea was to disable training natives in the early game but instead you get units every so often (and this would continue you would just be able to train them after Fortress or Industrial). This meant that they paid off like a trading post did but in a different way and also meant that the units you did get would function in a support role to your main army.

As for the affects on Coyote Runners. If this is undesirable you could run a counter penalty to them, so it boosts them by the amount, then takes them back to how they were, assuming that they can't be specifically targeted from being effected.

I mean we'll see what happens, but the fact quite a few of these units are 'quite comparable' yet still don't get used kinda of sells the point of how the problem lies elsewhere. As you know by now because of what you've looked at, you know how bad most of the stats are but there are exceptions. I mean some argue people are ignorant of them, but I'm not so sure. The build limits are very restrictive even with slight increases. The build limit + the fact you need a tp which you do not get to pick the destination of (unless you also build an embassy which has a significant build time as well as it's cost) are all pretty prohibitive factors.

There's other individual issues I'd address, but I want to see what other people have to say first. Diarouga's concern on Rattans is legitimate, however part of that is because they were bugged (At least in RE pretty sure its fixed in ESOC, not sure when that happened though) and didn't have the weaknesses they were supposed to. Tiger Claws also had similar issues.
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by chronique »

Mitoe wrote:You've probably never seen it because the units were so bad at fighting that the follow up after killing the forward base would have been comical. :P
So it wasn't a probleme ^^. Its a little weird to me, natives was bad overall, now we buff them, ans add some nerf at the same time, before any testing. To me it's looks like more a redesign of the native. To be honest, i prefere the fast time training, but i can live without.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

  • Quote

Post by Mitoe »

We'll make tweaks as needed, as long as people are actually willing to try out the changes in the first place.
User avatar
United States of America GiBthedurrty
Lancer
Donator 01
Posts: 744
Joined: Mar 20, 2017
Clan: YumiW

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by GiBthedurrty »

@Sargsyan your lobby?
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3476
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

I see some thoughtful changes in there. I hope natives become an important role to play as much as trade post. I like most when taking units like the mapuche, and switching them around to make a more unique unit.

One question though, are the build bounds in enemy TC range going to be reverted?
User avatar
Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 3372
Joined: Dec 18, 2017
ESO: lamergamer
Location: North Macedonia
Clan: c0ns

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Sargsyan »

GiBthedurrty wrote:@Sargsyan your lobby?
form a nootka lobby ?
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
Location: Boston

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Darwin_ »

I love these! I think making mapuche weaker and cheaper would be a good idea though.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
User avatar
Germany Makrokosmos12
Skirmisher
Posts: 199
Joined: Aug 17, 2016
ESO: Templer12

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

Most of these changes are very good. Only the Incan Bolas Warrior is still completely useless.
The have a bad animation (like a very slow macehaultin) and do like no damage. Could give it 2 more attack i think.

And i dont get why the build limit got increased by 1 unit??? What does that even change, like... nothing, you should increase most build limits by at least 2-3.
In the end i dont think people will make Zen pikes or Cherokee rifle man, because they still suck ass. And you really shouldnt make it a concern to balance natives around the french native strats. Because this is literally the french civ bonus. They are supposed to have the best natives (in reality the french had a lot of native allies, when they fought the british in the seven years war).
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:Most of these changes are very good. Only the Incan Bolas Warrior is still completely useless.
The have a bad animation (like a very slow macehaultin) and do like no damage. Could give it 2 more attack i think.

And i dont get why the build limit got increased by 1 unit??? What does that even change, like... nothing, you should increase most build limits by at least 2-3.
In the end i dont think people will make Zen pikes or Cherokee rifle man, because they still suck ass. And you really shouldnt make it a concern to balance natives around the french native strats. Because this is literally the french civ bonus. They are supposed to have the best natives (in reality the french had a lot of native allies, when they fought the british in the seven years war).
I thought about increasing it more, and still could. Have to remember that it doubles when you construct a 2nd settlement, and the implications for lategame. If one person has map control and the other doesn't, an extra 6 units could be a big deal.

Also more civs than French have Native Warrior combat, and it's 25% attack & hp which is an absolutely insane upgrade.
User avatar
Germany Makrokosmos12
Skirmisher
Posts: 199
Joined: Aug 17, 2016
ESO: Templer12

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

Mitoe wrote:
Makrokosmos12 wrote:Most of these changes are very good. Only the Incan Bolas Warrior is still completely useless.
The have a bad animation (like a very slow macehaultin) and do like no damage. Could give it 2 more attack i think.

And i dont get why the build limit got increased by 1 unit??? What does that even change, like... nothing, you should increase most build limits by at least 2-3.
In the end i dont think people will make Zen pikes or Cherokee rifle man, because they still suck ass. And you really shouldnt make it a concern to balance natives around the french native strats. Because this is literally the french civ bonus. They are supposed to have the best natives (in reality the french had a lot of native allies, when they fought the british in the seven years war).
I thought about increasing it more, and still could. Have to remember that it doubles when you construct a 2nd settlement, and the implications for lategame. If one person has map control and the other doesn't, an extra 6 units could be a big deal.

Also more civs than French have Native Warrior combat, and it's 25% attack & hp which is an absolutely insane upgrade.
But Mitoe, but when we are at the point in lategame when 6 additional units come into play, i dont think that makes a difference at that point. Its like having 3 extra cav or a batch of units at that point.

Ok, i was sure that only french could upgrade their natives with HC cards. Are the other ones the TWC civs?

And i also wanted to say i really appreciate the work that you guys (and especially you) put in the EP9. Shaping up really well so far.
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

  • Quote

Post by kevinitalien »

I do not really like the fact of increasing the training time of the natives, precisely I like this aspect, but overall I like these changes
Image
Image
Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Makrokosmos12 wrote:Most of these changes are very good. Only the Incan Bolas Warrior is still completely useless.
The have a bad animation (like a very slow macehaultin) and do like no damage. Could give it 2 more attack i think.

And i dont get why the build limit got increased by 1 unit??? What does that even change, like... nothing, you should increase most build limits by at least 2-3.
In the end i dont think people will make Zen pikes or Cherokee rifle man, because they still suck ass. And you really shouldnt make it a concern to balance natives around the french native strats. Because this is literally the french civ bonus. They are supposed to have the best natives (in reality the french had a lot of native allies, when they fought the british in the seven years war).
I thought about increasing it more, and still could. Have to remember that it doubles when you construct a 2nd settlement, and the implications for lategame. If one person has map control and the other doesn't, an extra 6 units could be a big deal.

Also more civs than French have Native Warrior combat, and it's 25% attack & hp which is an absolutely insane upgrade.
But Mitoe, but when we are at the point in lategame when 6 additional units come into play, i dont think that makes a difference at that point. Its like having 3 extra cav or a batch of units at that point.

Ok, i was sure that only french could upgrade their natives with HC cards. Are the other ones the TWC civs?

And i also wanted to say i really appreciate the work that you guys (and especially you) put in the EP9. Shaping up really well so far.
Hmm, you're right actually. Only Iroquois, France, and the TAD civs have upgrades for native warriors. I still think 25% is a pretty insane upgrade, but I'll have to think about it some more.
User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

  • Quote

Post by Rikikipu »

Best day of esoc honestly. It's just going to unlock so much more interesting build I believe, and it's going to be so refreshing for the game. Keep up with the good work @Mitoe
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by kevinitalien »

there may also be improvements in nat azteque and lakota to balance as well, for example on guatemala there are azteque and there is an improvement which increases HP and the attack of the explorer by 100% for 200w and 200c I believe ( imagine for explo iro like last kaiser stream my explo had 1250 hp and 40 atk age2 ), which is ridiculous ...., now we see more native nilla like the Iroquois on wabakimi too @Mitoe
Image
Image
Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

Forgot about Iroquois on Wabakimi. Might be worth buffing the tomahawk build limit a bit. Looks like Mantlets are the same as Huron Mantlets; maybe that should be different somehow.

I didn't realize Aztec was back. That does sound quite strong. Will have to look into it.
Australia Peachrocks
Lancer
Posts: 506
Joined: Jul 11, 2019
ESO: Peachrocks

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Peachrocks »

Mitoe wrote:We'll make tweaks as needed, as long as people are actually willing to try out the changes in the first place.
This is all I ask. This is going to take a long time to get right. Slow and steady is the only way. When you've got units that literally any civ can use, you've got to be careful.
Mitoe wrote: I thought about increasing it more, and still could. Have to remember that it doubles when you construct a 2nd settlement, and the implications for lategame. If one person has map control and the other doesn't, an extra 6 units could be a big deal.

Also more civs than French have Native Warrior combat, and it's 25% attack & hp which is an absolutely insane upgrade.
Iroquois also have it but do not have the age 2 +15%/+15%, nor the +20% HP to Skirms/CDBs/natives. The Asians all have two native cards each, China gets two in age 3, India and Japan get an age 2 and an age 3 one. Sioux get -85% train time. As far as I remember the rest are negligible (e.g Dutch getting team tiny amount of extra natives).

Keep in mind though that these cards as well as the generic -25% cost one (which also 'should be' really strong) that all Euros and Native American majors get and some the Asian ones are strung by two limitations that don't effect other units.

1. You're limited in how many units you can use as well as what type of unit. This means that cards naturally have lower rate of return when compared to normal units.

2. Your card investment both in terms of sending it and using it in your deck is entirely dependent upon controlling the native trade posts. Without them those cards do nothing.

Furthermore the late game in general is a mess and honestly contrary to popular belief, natives don't suddenly become more viable late just because they don't cost population. They still cost resources to train and resources to invest in their techs and units, which still can be spent on other things or saving towards other things. Only in extreme late game where you've got more resources then you can spend would they ever be worth considering in such a capacity and by then they are even further behind the curve. Also unless you've invested cards into them, they are even more inferior then usual to other things you can spend your resources on.
chronique wrote: Its a little weird to me, natives was bad overall, now we buff them, ans add some nerf at the same time, before any testing. To me it's looks like more a redesign of the native. To be honest, i prefere the fast time training, but i can live without.
A fair amount of them feel more like redesigns rather than overhauls but let's see where this leads, some of the changes are definitely in the right direction. I also am okay with increasing the train time. We really don't want degenerate native rushes tainting the view and in general causing misdirection towards the actual problem.
User avatar
Germany Makrokosmos12
Skirmisher
Posts: 199
Joined: Aug 17, 2016
ESO: Templer12

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

Two natives got left out with buffs (and these really need it):
-Incan Bolas Warriors still suck
- Huron Shields very slow, tanks well, but doesnt do much damage, very underwhelming. At current stage nobody will ever make them and have success with them.

Its hard to hit the sweetspot with these kind of stat changes, but for example cherokee, klammath, Tupi and Cheyenne for example only have 10 % rr. Thats one of the reason why natives suck, coz almost all native units in this game only have 0,10 % mr or rr. They have more HP to compensate, but some could need a resist buff.

Sad thing is, i played vs Japan on Bayou with fully french carded colonial cherokee rifleman and he still beat them with his yumi in age 2 (good unit).
Just because we say Cherokee is a "fine" decent unit doesnt make them viable at all. Fair isnt equal to good. Your trian time nerf was a good decision, but i still dont think natives will see success. They kinda need more help lol. But we will see when EP9 is released.
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by kevinitalien »

Mitoe wrote:Forgot about Iroquois on Wabakimi. Might be worth buffing the tomahawk build limit a bit. Looks like Mantlets are the same as Huron Mantlets; maybe that should be different somehow.

I didn't realize Aztec was back. That does sound quite strong. Will have to look into it.
https://clips.twitch.tv/CallousShinyOryxDBstyle
nat azteque is very lame ahah
Image
Image
Image Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV