EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

sebnan12 wrote:i love it!! great work guys! <3 one question i might have overlooked it somewhere: are native tribes still granting an xp trickle?
No, fortunately.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by sebnan12 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
sebnan12 wrote:i love it!! great work guys! <3 one question i might have overlooked it somewhere: are native tribes still granting an xp trickle?
No, fortunately.
yes!
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nice list of changes, good to see nats finally fixed. Must have been a lot of work too

Just got a few remarks:

- Tupi: would be nice if they wouldn't die to 1 tc shot anymore. Maybe 90 instead of 80 hp or something?
- Cheyenne: wait, is this a typo or you really want to give them x3 vs cav? 2x was crazy enough I think. Probably have the tech add only 0.5 vs cav and lower its cost to 150w 150g (from 350/350) or something?
- Comanche: shouldn't we nerf the cav hp tech? 150g 150f for 10% hp to all cavalry is obscene. Even the EP-buffed arsenal tech is more expensive (300g), affects only hand cavalry, and is available in fortress only. I'd go for 200g 200f, still sounds pretty strong.
- Cree: isn't the 5% hp to all units tech currently too cheap? Especially compared to the other nat 5% boost techs, like Navajo.
- Maybe making the "discount" techs research faster could make them more useable? E.g cheaper buildings or the comanche 10% cheaper techs take forever to research (on top of barely being worth it before late game).

Edit: the cheyenne tech currently says it "sets" the multiplier to 2. So I guess the effect can stay the same, only the cost has to change
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

Kaiserklein wrote:Nice list of changes, good to see nats finally fixed. Must have been a lot of work too

Just got a few remarks:

- Tupi: would be nice if they wouldn't die to 1 tc shot anymore. Maybe 90 instead of 80 hp or something?
- Cheyenne: wait, is this a typo or you really want to give them x3 vs cav? 2x was crazy enough I think. Probably have the tech add only 0.5 vs cav and lower its cost to 150w 150g (from 350/350) or something?
- Comanche: shouldn't we nerf the cav hp tech? 150g 150f for 10% hp to all cavalry is obscene. Even the EP-buffed arsenal tech is more expensive (300g), affects only hand cavalry, and is available in fortress only. I'd go for 200g 200f, still sounds pretty strong.
- Cree: isn't the 5% hp to all units tech currently too cheap? Especially compared to the other nat 5% boost techs, like Navajo.
- Maybe making the "discount" techs research faster could make them more useable? E.g cheaper buildings or the comanche 10% cheaper techs take forever to research (on top of barely being worth it before late game).

Edit: the cheyenne tech currently says it "sets" the multiplier to 2. So I guess the effect can stay the same, only the cost has to change
Yeah I misread what the Cheyenne tech does I guess. That’s my bad. Will be fixed before final release.

Tupi dying to 1 TC shot does kind of suck, that’s a fair point. Will look into it.

Good points on the other stuff as well.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

Tupi need rr instead of melee resist
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Mitoe »

dansil92 wrote:Tupi need rr instead of melee resist
Pretty sure they have ranged resist :hmm:
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Kaiserklein »

They have only 10% rr that's all. Increasing their rr would also work
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Imperial Noob »

Maybe something unique, like 0.15, or 0.25 RR?
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Peachrocks »

The other thing I wanted to mention if this thread got brought up again was that if people aren't using natives maybe some new maps might help in this regard. Nothing too crazy, but just something that encourages people to explore the option with a bit more safety and not so easy to contest or whatever.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

Mitoe wrote:
dansil92 wrote:Tupi need rr instead of melee resist
Pretty sure they have ranged resist :hmm:
I'll need that confirmed in game, I'm fairly certain they have (had?) Melee resist
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Imperial Noob »

Tupi always had that awkwardness of high melee damage and a melee resist, but being an archer with pathetic HP.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Kaiserklein »

Peachrocks wrote:The other thing I wanted to mention if this thread got brought up again was that if people aren't using natives maybe some new maps might help in this regard. Nothing too crazy, but just something that encourages people to explore the option with a bit more safety and not so easy to contest or whatever.
Well I think natives are quite used atm. Sometimes nat rushes, sometives nat techs, sometimes both. Sometimes nats in late game. This is due to the nat xp trickle being too strong in some situations. That's gonna be reverted, but nats will be buffed in other ways, so I don't expect them to be bad anyway.
My point is that on the current map pool, we do see a fair amount of nats. So it doesn't look like we need to change the maps. Nats just needed a buff, which they got now, so it should be fine.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

In game confirmed: 10rr. Wiki says melee resist I will fix that at some point
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Riotcoke »

Their problem is they get 1 shot by tcs, so they're sort of useless.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Imperial Noob »

dansil92 wrote:In game confirmed: 10rr. Wiki says melee resist I will fix that at some point
It definitely used to be melee resist. Possibly on TWC or nilla.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

90 hp 10rr would tank a tc shot and wouldn't change break point with the majority of cav units
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Peachrocks »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Peachrocks wrote:The other thing I wanted to mention if this thread got brought up again was that if people aren't using natives maybe some new maps might help in this regard. Nothing too crazy, but just something that encourages people to explore the option with a bit more safety and not so easy to contest or whatever.
Well I think natives are quite used atm. Sometimes nat rushes, sometives nat techs, sometimes both. Sometimes nats in late game. This is due to the nat xp trickle being too strong in some situations. That's gonna be reverted, but nats will be buffed in other ways, so I don't expect them to be bad anyway.
My point is that on the current map pool, we do see a fair amount of nats. So it doesn't look like we need to change the maps. Nats just needed a buff, which they got now, so it should be fine.
Sure if that’s true then that’s fine.

Some of them are just reworks but I guess we will find out. There was a concern though that we won’t know whether Nats are good or not because people don’t use them, so that’s where that idea came from. Similar to the sentiment on Portugal. That it’s not actually weak just unpopular.

Also to be blunt, there was a sentiment at some point against changing them at all because they could affect the meta too much and there’s a lot of players who are very content with a stale game.

Definitely agree even prior to the xp change that some were underused but as I said, I guess we will see. I don’t even want them to be that good, just not total dog poop in which even civs that have really bad units for that type don’t want to touch them.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by iCourt »

Seems fine. Klamath being a clone is the only total disappointing one.

I guess they are different after you research the 25% tech but still disappointing to see base stat clone units.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Jets »

I took this idea from another thread, about the tomahawk with a melee damage on ranged attack. That uniqueness stands over the rest of the common units, and I think that's the point native units should aim for.

Axethrowers, chakrams, huron mantlets with their low setup animations should have something different than the common bow/riffle most of the civs have. I really think about giving all these natives that use non-european like weapons(bow, rifle, sling) a melee damage at ranged attack, since they aren't just throwing projectiles, but entire thrown weapons. Idk if this would make a significant change, but it certainly plays around that tomahawk mechanic.

Thus, making this natives an indirect anti-cav & anti-light inf unit.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

Melee at range makes for uncomfortable interactions with artillery and skirms. If mantlets did 25 melee damage at range instead of their current ranged damage they would tear through skirms and artillery, even cav would struggle to deal with that. Would be insanely op, which is one big reason iro tomas *have to* do ranged damage
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Jets »

With a damage nerf and multipliers revision it wouldn't be that much of trouble, they would be countered with heavy infantry, thus, making rods, halbs, coyote runners and doppels being more useful in certain games.
Now that natives are being balanced to be a viable option to play, I see this tomahawk mechanic interesting, plus, natives heavily rely on your map control, limited production and the cost-efficiency inside the game.
Still, tomahawks would deal 16 raw damage, while skirms have a range advantage and multipliers, dealing a total of 27 ranged damage against tomahawks, 15 against chakrams(reduce its rr), 8 dmg against huron mantlets(reduce it rr) thus making the mantlets a true tanky siege unit not to ignore.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

Skirms do like 8 damage to chakrams...
Those units are all useless most of the time anyways theres no reason to make them worse vs skirms where they're already trash
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Jets »

dansil92 wrote:Skirms do like 8 damage to chakrams...
Those units are all useless most of the time anyways theres no reason to make them worse vs skirms where they're already trash
They still count as heavy inf? Or those tags were removed from natives? If that wasn't the case, skirms would do 15*2*50%rr, thus leaving a raw 15 damage.

Idk I'm just using the wiki stats for this, do skirms still do 15dmg? Either way, if the iro tomahawk was made with that mechanic I think it really means something.
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by dansil92 »

Ep renoved the heavy infantry tag from all units that dont counter cavalry. Chakrams, grens, arsonists
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Re: EP9: NATIVE TRIBES

Post by Peachrocks »

Hey @dansil92 can you do me a favour and give me a list for which natives appear on which esoc maps? The new ones you have for example don't mention them at the bottom ;). Include the ones that don't have any. I'm curious about the amount of times given natives appear and the potential for data on balance on each native group. Even if most/all remain unused this is data in itself.

As well, it'd be nice to have your input on such data and where natives could be used but aren't. I admit, I'm just not playing the game because well, I don't enjoy waiting ages for a game then being flamed for playing my way.

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