iNcog wrote:Why are we balancing things based off of fixed crates? I'm quite sure that it was supposed to be tested, not implemented unless testing was positive.
Because if we didn't, the test would be irrelevant as the game would be unbalanced.
It seems questionable to me that our understanding of balance (well top players' understanding of balance, not mine of course) would be that easy to ascertain without having actually tested how fixed crates work in a real beta. In other words, play testing.
Unless this has already been play-tested? Or has it not?
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Iro is balanced yes, I wouldn't change them because fixed crates is a nerf to them.
You don't think this 100w is not strong as other euro civ (like fr/brit/spain)? I think if you can find 50w (and chope 50 more) you can almost be in the same situation than RE with 4 kenya arround 4.45 under opponenet tc.
Darwin_ wrote:Nerf Age 3 porcelain tower? I get that it doesn't give a direct bonus upon age-up, but it is still worth 8 unupgraded vills, which is way more than any other wonder (toshogu is the only one that even comes close, and that is only worth ~7 vills with max shrines). Seems like it would be good to nerf the wood trickle to 3 or 3.5 (it is currently 4).
I see you asking for China nerfs all over, but clearly there is no consensus on China being OP.
And again, I really don't get why some people ask for nerfs for every one aspect of a civ that is very strong. It is completely irrelevant for overall balance if one aspect is strong as long as the civ overall isn't OP. I repeat, it is irrelevant as long as the civ overall is fine.
Eg it doesn't matter whether forest prowlers or urumi or age4 cuirs are extremely strong, much stronger than anything else, as long as their respective civs arent OP.
It's the same with the porcelain tower. As long as there is no agreement on the civ being OP, individual aspects of it being strong is fine.
I agree that somewhat OP things are ok for civs to have, but my problem (and the problem many others seem to have with china) is that they just get so much free shit. Summer palace gives free units, porcelain tower gives free resources, confucian academy gives free artillery, consulate essentially gives free 6 musk by fortress, their unit shipments are generally quite good, they can make a balanced unit composition out of one building, their hero can train shit, the list just goes on an on. I want to nerf the porcelain tower specifically because it is undoubtedly very strong, and also happens to be one of the main things that can make china's age 3 absolutely crazy.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
I think we need that fixed crates quickly and then, balance the game. I don't like to much this theory crafting about what is op or not without sort of data on how fixed crates will change the game.
iNcog wrote:Why are we balancing things based off of fixed crates? I'm quite sure that it was supposed to be tested, not implemented unless testing was positive.
Because if we didn't, the test would be irrelevant as the game would be unbalanced.
It seems questionable to me that our understanding of balance (well top players' understanding of balance, not mine of course) would be that easy to ascertain without having actually tested how fixed crates work in a real beta. In other words, play testing.
Unless this has already been play-tested? Or has it not?
We're playing with random crates atm, so we kinda know how fixed crates would work yes.
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Iro is balanced yes, I wouldn't change them because fixed crates is a nerf to them.
You don't think this 100w is not strong as other euro civ (like fr/brit/spain)? I think if you can find 50w (and chope 50 more) you can almost be in the same situation than RE with 4 kenya arround 4.45 under opponenet tc.
That's if you can find 50w ye. Else it slows your age up. But now that you say it, we might need to fix the Iro crates to 100w and no food, we'll see in the beta.
chronique wrote:I think we need that fixed crates quickly and then, balance the game. I don't like to much this theory crafting about what is op or not without sort of data on how fixed crates will change the game.
You'd need to ask Mitoe or eaglemut to have reliable information, but I expect the beta to be released in 1-2 weeks.
chronique wrote:I think we need to talk about other aspects of balance after the beta then.
Agree with this. Move too many variables at once and you lose control over where things go.
That's true, and I totally agree with this in general.
However, you have to keep in mind that we know the state of the balance with fixed crates (because we've all played thousands of games on the wood+food crate start).
Also isn't it paradoxical that people claim that on the one hand, random crates isn't a big deal and doesn't affect balance too much, but on the other that the balance with fixed crates should be tested ?
chronique wrote:I think we need to talk about other aspects of balance after the beta then.
Agree with this. Move too many variables at once and you lose control over where things go.
That's true, and I totally agree with this in general.
However, you have to keep in mind that we know the state of the balance with fixed crates (because we've all played thousands of games on the wood+food crate start).
Also isn't it paradoxical that people claim that on the one hand, random crates isn't a big deal and doesn't affect balance too much, but on the other that the balance with fixed crates should be tested ?
Fair points.
I'm just a bit cautious with a change such as fixed crates for all civilizations, but what will happen will happen. As long as it gets tested and vetted, no issues. After all we want to make the patch as best as possible.
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Also isn't it paradoxical that people claim that on the one hand, random crates isn't a big deal and doesn't affect balance too much, but on the other that the balance with fixed crates should be tested ?
I don't heard a lot who said that. I have more heard the oposite (some peaple have said its the biggest change of ep).
Ah, it's because eaglemut didn't have time to implement all the EP changes :
Welp, kinda overslept so I didn't finish all changes, but at least managed to release what I got so far.
What is missing: Nat changes, TP income, fixed creates, new privateer shipment for Sioux.
