EP9: SIOUX (actual thread)

[kaister]

I heard it's an "actual thread" though. Is Trump a sioux warchief here?

But i agree with that axe rider doing 75% damage to dragoons is unnecessary.

“Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump promised a crowd in Sioux City last night (Fruday) that he is not “Nerfing Eco Teepees” because polls indicate Sioux is in 12th place.

About 22-hundred people gathered in the Sioux City West High School gymnasium to see Trump. He spoke for about 50 minutes and then took questions from the crowd.
Trump says the “EP 9 Balancd Team” are telling him he should quit campaigning for support in Sioux’s Caucuses and focus on Nerfing China/Japan, where bipartisan support is expected, but nothing is being done”

[iCourt]

Teepee Aura was the biggest break in civ design EP has created.

My opinion on how a Teepee should work: Teepees original text string says that nearby unit HP is increased. I always took that to mean ALL units including boats and villagers.

Now the argument I have heard is it would make villagers un-raidable. This is simply not true. Villagers could still be raided they would just be harder to kill. I truly think the original intent was for the Teepees to work as Sioux's version of a "wall." They can't stop a raid completely with a 5 wood wall, but they sure as hell can make it so their villagers near those 50 wood teepee are a bit harder to kill.

Pretty much the only thing you'd need to balance is the cost of a teepee so they are an investment, need to be positioned accordingly, and can't be spammed too early.

[deleted_user]

@iCourt This could be a really good idea. Could be a return to form to RE Sioux's design (without broken BRs and compensations elsewhere) while mitigating the effect of the musk rush, since vills could actually tank.

This would also introduce interesting(?) water plays, buffing ship hp?

[iCourt]

This would also introduce interesting(?) water plays, buffing ship hp?

Honestly teepee could effect boats already? I honestly have never really gone water cause Sioux is so beyond trash on it. I think I have only ever gone boats vs France and Germany, knowing they probably aren't gonna make any boats either. You sneak a dock in where they hopefully can't scout it. I can't check this late to see what it effects.

But to answer your question, yes. It still would fit with the civ design of them being weak on water. They would be decent and ok along the shore near their teepee. But once they are in open water or have to chase fleeing boats that bonus is gone.

EDIT: It would also have some synergy with the pioneers and warrior society (200% vill attack) cards. Pioneers is super risky to send outside of a team game cause it literally puts you shipment behind, and warrior society is an industrial card. Would actually make those 2 cards potentially worth sending if you plan or end up late game with Sioux.

[Darwin_]

We’re gonna nerf the eco teepees and keep AR with a .75 against goons? This is zoi logic!

The point of 0.75 vs. goons for axe riders is to compensate for bow riders having higher base damage but lower multipliers. If you get rid of axe riders' negative multiplier, AR + BR comps would be unstoppable because you could just z-move skirm + goon comps and kite, maybe even z-move as well, musk + huss comps.

[dansil92]

Its also largely because axe riders are faster than goons with the chiefy boi around so its impossible to kite them properly. Since axe riders have crazy dps and decent hp, they have to perform poorly vs ranged cav or it gets broken quickly. (I would like to see 0.75x vs eagle runners as well). I believe but im not 100% certain that on one patch uhlans had 0.75x vs goons too

[chris1089]

Sioux is going to be too fast and the rush too good now.

[Mitoe]

Wait I never even knew about the negative multiplier. Why does skirm goon still feel so bad vs Sioux then?

[Riotcoke]

Its also largely because axe riders are faster than goons with the chiefy boi around so its impossible to kite them properly. Since axe riders have crazy dps and decent hp, they have to perform poorly vs ranged cav or it gets broken quickly. (I would like to see 0.75x vs eagle runners as well). I believe but im not 100% certain that on one patch uhlans had 0.75x vs goons too

Uhlans had 0.75 vs vills on nilla i believe you might be getting confused with that.

[Riotcoke]

Wait I never even knew about the negative multiplier. Why does skirm goon still feel so bad vs Sioux then?

I think it's more to do with a lack of blocking. Also bowrider beat goons for cost quite significantly iirc.

[dansil92]

Axe riders also have a better break point on skirms than huss do

Its also why axe riders are comically bad against cav archers- 0.75x into 30 melee armour

@Riotcoke ah yes vs vills that's right

[Garja]

AR neg multiplier vs ranged cav is because they're faster than goons ye.
However, the same neg multiplier was also applied too all hand cav in the old ASFP.

[harcha]

Wait I never even knew about the negative multiplier. Why does skirm goon still feel so bad vs Sioux then?

As people already pointed out - the warchief aura. You cannot kite that shit and the extra speed also means sioux units will always have better pathing since they just path faster.

[Darwin_]

Honestly the wc aura, while it fits with the design with the civ and is pretty integral to it, seems like it causes so many problems. Do people have ideas for possible ways to replace/fix it or would people rather balance around it (as it seems we already have been forever)?

[knusch]

unless there is a better atlernative to eco teepees they shouldn't be changed...

[harcha]

Nah that is not the issue @Darwin_ . The issue is balancing the OP military and terrible eco sioux has in RE. And I think sioux military is already at an OK spot on EP.

@knusch i just don't like it because it's ridiculous how they boost everything and can be made by everything

[knusch]

@knusch i just don't like it because it's ridiculous how they boost everything and can be made by everything

i understand some ppl dislike the fact that it boosts both eco and military. i don't mind the change since u actually see ppl build teepees which rly wasn't the case on RE + it gives sioux a lil eco boost which i think they needed.

[harcha]

@knusch i don't have a problem leaving them to do an eco boost if that is what the civ needs. there have been 2 eco teepee iterations already in EP (for all i know) so the players that have more experience with sioux should be able to say how eco teepees should work.
i just think they shouldn't be buildable by warhut units before a card is sent and they shouldn't be boosting attack before a card is sent. because that is what makes a well played sioux army simply too strong (as kaiser pointed out), basically unkillable

[Kaiserklein]

We'll find a better way to boost the sioux eco for sure. Imo the current teepee design isn't acceptable (though it was way worse when people would build 10 of them in base every game...).
Besides I think we can make teepees usable without giving them an eco role. I agree the building shouldn't be useless.

[knusch]

@knusch i don't have a problem leaving them to do an eco boost if that is what the civ needs. there have been 2 eco teepee iterations already in EP (for all i know) so the players that have more experience with sioux should be able to say how eco teepees should work.
i just think they shouldn't be buildable by warhut units before a card is sent and they shouldn't be boosting attack before a card is sent. because that is what makes a well played sioux army simply too strong (as kaiser pointed out), basically unkillable

right, i think the reason behind this change was to promote the use of teepees in the open map, since usually u not gonna casually move some vills with your army to build them - i think this is not a bad idea
if the boost stacks too high, make it cap at xx%

[Kaiserklein]

Thing is slamming down teepees at last second can easily swing the fight in your favour. You pay a couple hundreds of wood and get the equivalent of an age 3 combat card or something. Sioux already have the firepit to get a temporary stats boost in a fight. Now they have a second way to do this easily. So their army becomes really insane.

I think just increasing the building time of teepees a bit might fix this? Then you couldn't insta build them with wakinas like now, so it would be more situational maybe. And/or decrease the max amount of infantry units that can be set to build a teepee at the same time.

[harcha]

@knusch thing is though that it is a good idea to move the vils with your army. it is always done in aoe2 and i don't see why we shouldn't do it in aoe3 other than we all just being too stubborn and lazy!

boost stacking imo is a separate discussion, but a good point nonetheless. i think stacking boosts should stop at like 2-3 teepees so that any more teepees you make doesn't do much to your army. this is so that if your opponent doesn't have long range siege to deal with your teepees and is in a position where he cannot choose the fight location, he is still not fighting an army that is 2 ages ahead of his in terms of stats. not sure of the % values... (i am not a person with experience of sioux to give specific values, i'm just discussing mechanics)

teepees being strong enough is already a good motivation to use them even away from your base. i mean if you have the intention to win the game.... to promote the use of them you could combine the effects of 2 cards is some way so that you only need to send 1 colonial card for teepees to be buildable by infantry and also be boosting attack. but if this card also let infantry make warhuts and corrals imo that's just too strong

[knusch]

@knusch thing is though that it is a good idea to move the vils with your army. it is always done in aoe2 and i don't see why we shouldn't do it in aoe3 other than we all just being too stubborn and lazy!

tbf i never played aoe2 multiplayer and from what ive seen i am not a big fun of the gameplay overall.
i am def too lazy to move some vills with my army in case i wanna build a teepee or two xD

[n0el]

Bringing vils in aoe3 is in no way comparable to aoe2 or sc2. In aoe2 you can build a tower or a castle, and repair your siege units. In sc2, you can repair your mech as Terran. In aoe3 there’s no comparable benefit.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ye in aoe2 they can build fast walls and tower, and in sc2 you only do it as terran (I've never seen a good toss/zerg do that, except with 12 pool in a zvz) because :
1. Scv can build bunkers and towers
2. Scv can repair tanks
3. Scv are in melee mode so they block the other melee units and they actually have a decent dps
4. When you pull a lot of scv (more than just 4-6 to build bunkers/repair), that's because your bases are satured and your scv can't gather. In aoe3 base saturation doesn't exist, but if you're out of hunts, it's standard to push with your vills to get your next hunt.

Anyway, I think that units shouldn't be able to build teepees. This would be a good incentive to push 2-4 vills with your army, but people like that change...