EP9: PORTUGUESE

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France chronique
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by chronique »

I think with this cassa you need to play full time porto (or be kaiserklein) and its not worth it. If you want play in tourney, its better to play fr/iro/german because there unit are quite similar. I like the new (old to me) cassa, but i understand why peaple don't like it.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by deleted_user »

I always said the main issue of ports but german lobby is too strong here yea

Goon nerf is quite significant and nothing other than reverting goon nerf can be alternate to ports like i said millions of times.. Atleast try %25 rr? don't be too stubborn :flowers:
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by Cometk »

deleted_user wrote:I always said the main issue of ports but german lobby is too strong here yea

Goon nerf is quite significant and nothing other than reverting goon nerf can be alternate to ports like i said millions of times.. Atleast try %25 rr? don't be too stubborn :flowers:
What is “German lobby” vying for? They’re getting the worst fixed crate start of any civilization on ep9 besides China
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by Peachrocks »

Eh you could always make their Crossbows be able to compete with cards and options so that if people don’t like the 4.5 ROF on Cass they have another option that doesn’t obsolete. Give cards that increase the range or do whatever is necessary to make them a legitimate alternative. Just a suggestion.

Personally I feel the 4.5 rof is more of a disadvantage but I can see the appeal and the uniqueness is nice.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
deleted_user wrote:I always said the main issue of ports but german lobby is too strong here yea

Goon nerf is quite significant and nothing other than reverting goon nerf can be alternate to ports like i said millions of times.. Atleast try %25 rr? don't be too stubborn :flowers:
What is “German lobby” vying for? They’re getting the worst fixed crate start of any civilization on ep9 besides China
They're getting unnerfed at the same time, so nothing to complain about.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by harcha »

Peachrocks wrote:Eh you could always make their Crossbows be able to compete with cards and options so that if people don’t like the 4.5 ROF on Cass they have another option that doesn’t obsolete. Give cards that increase the range or do whatever is necessary to make them a legitimate alternative. Just a suggestion.

Personally I feel the 4.5 rof is more of a disadvantage but I can see the appeal and the uniqueness is nice.
what, having guard crossbows in fortress age is not a legitimate alternative?
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POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by Peachrocks »

harcha wrote:
Peachrocks wrote:Eh you could always make their Crossbows be able to compete with cards and options so that if people don’t like the 4.5 ROF on Cass they have another option that doesn’t obsolete. Give cards that increase the range or do whatever is necessary to make them a legitimate alternative. Just a suggestion.

Personally I feel the 4.5 rof is more of a disadvantage but I can see the appeal and the uniqueness is nice.
what, having guard crossbows in fortress age is not a legitimate alternative?
Not at the price it asks (both the card and resource cost and yes even with the change) and there's no imperial upgrade, which especially for a civ like Port can be in the back of your mind. Furthermore 16 range is a significant liability.

I mean maybe I'm wrong, but do they get serious use? I suppose that's a non applicable question because the question at the start of the thread is talking about Portugal being underused, never mind about a niche option.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by GiBthedurrty »

ESOC is so oppressive
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

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Post by dansil92 »

Bestieros would be so much better if you got like half the number of xbows from the tech and had it at a reasonable cost like 800 wood or so. Its currently just so unachievable and ports as an unironic xbow civ could give... a unique appeal on low gold maps
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by harcha »

dansil92 wrote:Bestieros would be so much better if you got like half the number of xbows from the tech and had it at a reasonable cost like 800 wood or so. Its currently just so unachievable and ports as an unironic xbow civ could give... a unique appeal on low gold maps
that doesn't seem like a reasonable price for a guard upgrade in fortress age
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by dansil92 »

harcha wrote:
dansil92 wrote:Bestieros would be so much better if you got like half the number of xbows from the tech and had it at a reasonable cost like 800 wood or so. Its currently just so unachievable and ports as an unironic xbow civ could give... a unique appeal on low gold maps
that doesn't seem like a reasonable price for a guard upgrade in fortress age
Its a guard tech on xbows lol

Plus a card. Westernization is 900 wood for vet everything for Russia
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by iCourt »

Kaiserklein wrote:Eh I just give up, it's pointless anyway as people aren't able to micro at all, can't expect them to appreciate a cool unit
Nah it's a cool unique unit. Just way more situational now. Not as versatile as a skirm. Kinda like a less effective abus which it sort of is.

I'm not against the change to Cass and personally it makes the civ more unique. That's why I'm very much for unique changes to the civ rather than standardizing changes if any changes happen to take place at all.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by Peachrocks »

You could give Bestieros the Longbow treatment. Make the upgrade available without a card but the church card tech sends a bunch of them and gives them range instead rather than the complications a guard upgrade in age 3 can bring? I mean there's something similar for Doppels with Germany, not that anyone uses it but there is precedent.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by wardyb1 »

Doesn't 4.5 ROF cass go against EP policy? Like wasn't everyone unhappy with zoi's random changes yet all of sudden some are in defence of a skirm having 4.5 ROF which no other skirm has. It is completely outside the norm of a skirm unit. Again I think ports have just lost some of their gimmick. They just don't get that reward they used to for surviving till the 4th age. I'd look at undoing possible nerfs to its jinetes, undo the changes to cass and possibly just give it a small hp buff or range resist buff to keep it inline with its original principles while being better at standing and fighting. That's really all they need.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by dansil92 »

wardyb1 wrote:Doesn't 4.5 ROF cass go against EP policy? Like wasn't everyone unhappy with zoi's random changes yet all of sudden some are in defence of a skirm having 4.5 ROF which no other skirm has. It is completely outside the norm of a skirm unit. Again I think ports have just lost some of their gimmick. They just don't get that reward they used to for surviving till the 4th age. I'd look at undoing possible nerfs to its jinetes, undo the changes to cass and possibly just give it a small hp buff or range resist buff to keep it inline with its original principles while being better at standing and fighting. That's really all they need.
4.5 rof cass goes back to 2005 when thats how cassadores were originally made
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by wardyb1 »

dansil92 wrote:
wardyb1 wrote:Doesn't 4.5 ROF cass go against EP policy? Like wasn't everyone unhappy with zoi's random changes yet all of sudden some are in defence of a skirm having 4.5 ROF which no other skirm has. It is completely outside the norm of a skirm unit. Again I think ports have just lost some of their gimmick. They just don't get that reward they used to for surviving till the 4th age. I'd look at undoing possible nerfs to its jinetes, undo the changes to cass and possibly just give it a small hp buff or range resist buff to keep it inline with its original principles while being better at standing and fighting. That's really all they need.
4.5 rof cass goes back to 2005 when thats how cassadores were originally made
Except they clearly patched that out for some semblance of continuity between skirms. Idk it just seems antithetical to the idea of it as a skirmisher unit especially when it clearly isn't all that well received a good amount of players.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by dansil92 »

I never said i liked it (i actually stated the opposite in a previous post) only that there was (is) a reason for it
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by duckzilla »

duckzilla wrote:
iCourt wrote:Extra range on their xbows would perhaps allow sending early dragoons an option, and would mesh pretty well with the church besterios. That's just one of many gimmicks.
I would love seeing viable xbows for Ports in a similar way as longbows for British.
Why not adding an age II card that gives xbows +4 range to bring them on par with skirms? Additionally, one could improve the church card by adding an imperial upgrade option to xbows when researching Besteiros. It would combine the uniqueness of Port range upgrades and Besteiros and, ideally, create new viable options for Port colo play which do not reach a dead end after Industrial.
What about this?
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by harcha »

dansil92 wrote:
harcha wrote:
dansil92 wrote:Bestieros would be so much better if you got like half the number of xbows from the tech and had it at a reasonable cost like 800 wood or so. Its currently just so unachievable and ports as an unironic xbow civ could give... a unique appeal on low gold maps
that doesn't seem like a reasonable price for a guard upgrade in fortress age
Its a guard tech on xbows lol

Plus a card. Westernization is 900 wood for vet everything for Russia
it probably makes them the most cost effective unit with 1 card sent. veteran is 400, guard is 1200, 22 xbow is 1760. i think the price is fine as it stands
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by Astaroth »

It doesn't matter if the card is objectively good value in theory, if it is hardly worth it in practice because the initial price is too steep.

If you can have 2k+ wood lying around and afford to send a card from age2, you are probably already in a winning position anyway.

If the card is supposed to be viable, it should be cheaper but send less xbows, making it a realistic option in early age3.

If Germany had an age3 card that was 3k gold and sent some good mercs, also allowing you to train all of them, regardless of what the saloon otherwise says, it would hardly see much use.

Generally speaking, I do find it a bit funny that some people are so against buffing ports when they are quite clearly not that good.

Eg it seems quite obvious that Germany and France are both stronger than Ports overall. Yet neither France nor Germany is considered a tier1 civ by most players. This to me shows that many players are quite fine with ports being a lower tier civ overall.

Which might just be because so few people play them, giving them a weak lobby. Not to mention that basically every other top player absolutely despises playing against eg Kynesie ports and is afraid of buffing that, lol
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by harcha »

Astaroth wrote:It doesn't matter if the card is objectively good value in theory, if it is hardly worth it in practice because the initial price is too steep.

If you can have 2k+ wood lying around and afford to send a card from age2, you are probably already in a winning position anyway.

If the card is supposed to be viable, it should be cheaper but send less xbows, making it a realistic option in early age3.
I would be ok with that compromise if the stat boost was reduced to smth like 20% 20% or less. Anyway i don't think top players would want this change, as it is another small and meaningless change to the list.
imo 2200w is not even that much if you get the units out of it quick
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by forgrin »

Astaroth wrote:
Generally speaking, I do find it a bit funny that some people are so against buffing ports when they are quite clearly not that good.

Eg it seems quite obvious that Germany and France are both stronger than Ports overall. Yet neither France nor Germany is considered a tier1 civ by most players. This to me shows that many players are quite fine with ports being a lower tier civ overall.

Which might just be because so few people play them, giving them a weak lobby. Not to mention that basically every other top player absolutely despises playing against eg Kynesie ports and is afraid of buffing that, lol
Well I think players who experienced true Port sea lame in RE quicksearch have some understandable PTSD.

That being said, it does seem to factor into some tourney/EP decision-making I think. Nerfing Ports to be pretty much just a water civ, and then playing on map pools with very few or no water maps will inevitably lead to this result.

Something to keep in mind though is that civs have different power levels depending on the map pools. Ports were at their strongest on EP when they had both 80f vills AND a map pool with ridiculous hunts on almost every map. Now that the map pool has more moderate-resource maps, the balance has moved away from very hungry civs.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by duckzilla »

harcha wrote:I would be ok with that compromise if the stat boost was reduced to smth like 20% 20% or less. Anyway i don't think top players would want this change, as it is another small and meaningless change to the list.
imo 2200w is not even that much if you get the units out of it quick
Sorry, but I think that comment is absurd.
Making Besteiros viable is not a small and meaningless change. It is giving Portuguese more uniqueness, more flexibility, and makes playing them more interesting for casual players.
harcha wrote:I would be ok with that compromise if the stat boost was reduced to smth like 20% 20% or less. Anyway i don't think top players would want this change, as it is another small and meaningless change to the list.
imo 2200w is not even that much if you get the units out of it quick
So you agree with it, when it is directly nerfed to be inviable again. That would, indeed, be a meaningless change.

Where is the problem in making Besteiros a viable alternative, even if it ends up mostly used in team games or lower ranks? Does it make Ports magically overpowered?
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by harcha »

duckzilla wrote:
harcha wrote:I would be ok with that compromise if the stat boost was reduced to smth like 20% 20% or less. Anyway i don't think top players would want this change, as it is another small and meaningless change to the list.
imo 2200w is not even that much if you get the units out of it quick
So you agree with it, when it is directly nerfed to be inviable again.
Where did i say this? I remain of the opinion that they are already reasonably viable. Making them more viable could be too strong.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: EP9: PORTUGUESE

Post by Astaroth »

They are not really viable in a competitive 1v1 as a part of a regular build, unless you've both run out of gold or you're already winning anyway. How often do you see them used by port players?

I just don't see a rather slow (as in, little early mass in age 3) defensive civ like ports banking over 2k wood while the opponent is doing what exactly? Either kill you or mass more and stronger units.

I just see zero evidence of the card being used or being remotely viable in a standard game.

I'd argue that sending them is a reasonable option in max 5-10 % of all port games and one of the best option in way less than that.

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