Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

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Healthy for the game or not?

It is fine, a part of being a skilled player
36
90%
It is unhealthy for the game and should be addressed
4
10%
 
Total votes: 40

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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
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Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Recently i took to completing the Art of War challenges, and found that to complete the Build Order one for a gold medal, I had to use it on the CDB guarded by wolves, letting me get it quickly enough to keep my eco up.

And hence, I raise the question, and wonder if the Devs ever thought about it.
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

For those unfamiliar, interjection has a good video about it.

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Italy Garja
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

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Post by Garja »

Old discussion, kinda. It's not game breaking, it takes skills, it doesn't directly hurt the opponent and it's even harder on DE because it seems they changed the behavior of treasure guardians (can't exactly manipulate the direction where they go) as well as maps being generally more crowded with other objects (guardians tend to reset when they bounce on something).
So it is just fine. One may even argue that it is the intended way of taking treasures as otherwise you could never pick up more than like 2 or 3 in age1.
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by iamgaming »

It should be fixed as it doesn't look beautiful but we can't blame others for exploiting it.
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

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Post by dansil92 »

y'all 3 voters for "its bad" could just say you're bad at treasuring instead
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France iNcog
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by iNcog »

Been a part of the game since '05
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Garja wrote: ↑
27 Jun 2022, 19:07
Old discussion, kinda. It's not game breaking, it takes skills, it doesn't directly hurt the opponent and it's even harder on DE because it seems they changed the behavior of treasure guardians (can't exactly manipulate the direction where they go) as well as maps being generally more crowded with other objects (guardians tend to reset when they bounce on something).
So it is just fine. One may even argue that it is the intended way of taking treasures as otherwise you could never pick up more than like 2 or 3 in age1.
I have some points I can disagree with.

skills - somewhat true, albeit the main difficulty is in getting a feel for the distance you need to travel from the treasure. There is no indication, one just needs to know. If devs want us to use this exploit, it would help for players to be either taught it, or to offer the players a distance indicator so they know where to go to trigger it.

doesn't directly hurt the opponent - given how strong treasures can be, with stuff like vils or massive resource boosts in the realm of 2-300, it's easy to argue that the exploit can actually be game-winning depending on how they spawn and scouting patterns, at the highest levels of play.

cant manipulate behaviour - that one i haven't particularly noticed, do you have any more info on this? And for the average case, the exploit is still fairly doable, especially as we move back to old maps.

maps being crowded balances it - does making the mechanic more inconsistent and frustrating really make for a balanced and good experience? You either get screwed by basically random things beyond your control, or generate yourself a potentially massive advantage. Combined with the previous, it kinda becomes stupid, cause it's seemingly balancing it via inconsistency rather than actually taking a stance on the topic and giving tools to players to use it properly.

intended way of taking treasures - question ofc lies, are you as the player supposed to be able to take extremely difficult treasures so efficiently and snag yourself such a big advantage? Plus, this makes for a rather big problem for balancing, as civs with melee explorers cannot use this, and in turn are left with a potentially major disadvantage over someone that can snag a 300 wood treasure by exploiting behaviour in age1. Unless you count extremely convoluted interactions which are dependent on map, explored treasures etc, as opposed to just seeing it and doing it, you either have to balance civs with the exploit in mind, or just leave them at a comparative disadvantage.

@dansil92 gr8 b8 m8 i r8 it 8/8
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by dansil92 »

you say its bait, but I speak the truth
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by Garja »

ShinkuroYukinari wrote: ↑
29 Jun 2022, 19:56
I have some points I can disagree with.

skills - somewhat true, albeit the main difficulty is in getting a feel for the distance you need to travel from the treasure. There is no indication, one just needs to know. If devs want us to use this exploit, it would help for players to be either taught it, or to offer the players a distance indicator so they know where to go to trigger it.
The turning distance is just outside the explorer range circle. Anyway this is up to players'e expierence and practice, exactly why it is a skill

doesn't directly hurt the opponent - given how strong treasures can be, with stuff like vils or massive resource boosts in the realm of 2-300, it's easy to argue that the exploit can actually be game-winning depending on how they spawn and scouting patterns, at the highest levels of play.
there are so many treasures on DE that virtually no treasure taken is game winning

cant manipulate behaviour - that one i haven't particularly noticed, do you have any more info on this? And for the average case, the exploit is still fairly doable, especially as we move back to old maps.
it is just harder to direct the guardian in the desired direction with the correct side step

maps being crowded balances it - does making the mechanic more inconsistent and frustrating really make for a balanced and good experience? You either get screwed by basically random things beyond your control, or generate yourself a potentially massive advantage. Combined with the previous, it kinda becomes stupid, cause it's seemingly balancing it via inconsistency rather than actually taking a stance on the topic and giving tools to players to use it properly.
bit more frustrating but I don't get the point. It is basically an indirect nerf making it less effective (end up taking some damage instead of a perfect kill)

intended way of taking treasures - question ofc lies, are you as the player supposed to be able to take extremely difficult treasures so efficiently and snag yourself such a big advantage? Plus, this makes for a rather big problem for balancing, as civs with melee explorers cannot use this, and in turn are left with a potentially major disadvantage over someone that can snag a 300 wood treasure by exploiting behaviour in age1. Unless you count extremely convoluted interactions which are dependent on map, explored treasures etc, as opposed to just seeing it and doing it, you either have to balance civs with the exploit in mind, or just leave them at a comparative disadvantage.
tier1 and tier2 treasures are to be taken in age1 with just the explorers. I never saw a player taking a 300w treasure, nor the sum of multiple treasures adds up to that amount. Relatively big amount of resources are the norm on DE, just becaue of the number of treasures and the fact they all grant resources rather than other bonuses
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by bobabu »

I think treasures also give the game a bit of a luck factor. Also, you need to be able to adapt more as you never know what kind of treasure you are gonna get. No game should be purely based on skill. Imao. There needs to be a healthy amount of both upsets are interesting. And being able to sometimes beat a better player because you have a bit of luck motivates a lot. If you will only be able to get treasures later the luck factor will decrease as they will be much less important. Also adapting won't benefit you. Basically who has the better macro and army first will get them.
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

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Post by duckzilla »

I'm a shit player and this mechanic is completely fine. It is relatively simple, you pay for it with attention/skill and it's also a fun mini game enhancing the overall experience.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by helln00 »

The only thing i have to say about the treasures is that there probably needs to be a look at how the different hero types work with treasures and probably need some balance around that

Alot of the the newer treasures have much higher resist now, like outlaw Landsknecht and the pirate now guarding 50 wood treasures which makes it completely unviable for melee heroes to take, unless you are native where you can just convert them. China has a real problem on maps littered with these and often an early wood treasure can be game changing for china its really bad balance for them

also the transition animation when you get close and start meleeing for african heroes are shit, I actually cant tell if im dealing higher dps by getting into melee with them or not
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by alistairpeter »

I think that’s the only chance European civs (besides Spain) can keep up with other explorers. Otherwise they lose 100hp, an ability, an aura, speed, area attack, extra scouting unit, or even a second explorer. Of all the things in the game to complain about right now this hasn’t made it on my list
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by iamgaming »

alistairpeter wrote: ↑
01 Jul 2022, 03:18
I think that’s the only chance European civs (besides Spain) can keep up with other explorers. Otherwise they lose 100hp, an ability, an aura, speed, area attack, extra scouting unit, or even a second explorer. Of all the things in the game to complain about right now this hasn’t made it on my list
If it will be fixed then ranged explorers should get some buffs, of course.
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by aligator92 »

helln00 wrote: ↑
30 Jun 2022, 13:11
The only thing i have to say about the treasures is that there probably needs to be a look at how the different hero types work with treasures and probably need some balance around that

Alot of the the newer treasures have much higher resist now, like outlaw Landsknecht and the pirate now guarding 50 wood treasures which makes it completely unviable for melee heroes to take, unless you are native where you can just convert them. China has a real problem on maps littered with these and often an early wood treasure can be game changing for china its really bad balance for them

also the transition animation when you get close and start meleeing for african heroes are shit, I actually cant tell if im dealing higher dps by getting into melee with them or not
Let's not forget that the China explorer is a 2000 HP tank that cran train 5 cheap shadow-teching pseudo-cav units while in combat and turn enemy corpses into even more units. So it is fine if he takes some time to kill a high HP guardian.
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by helln00 »

aligator92 wrote: ↑
01 Jul 2022, 11:52
helln00 wrote: ↑
30 Jun 2022, 13:11
The only thing i have to say about the treasures is that there probably needs to be a look at how the different hero types work with treasures and probably need some balance around that

Alot of the the newer treasures have much higher resist now, like outlaw Landsknecht and the pirate now guarding 50 wood treasures which makes it completely unviable for melee heroes to take, unless you are native where you can just convert them. China has a real problem on maps littered with these and often an early wood treasure can be game changing for china its really bad balance for them

also the transition animation when you get close and start meleeing for african heroes are shit, I actually cant tell if im dealing higher dps by getting into melee with them or not
Let's not forget that the China explorer is a 2000 HP tank that cran train 5 cheap shadow-teching pseudo-cav units while in combat and turn enemy corpses into even more units. So it is fine if he takes some time to kill a high HP guardian.
the problem is not their high HP but that they have 30-40 melee resist, which means they take forever to kill, and when they are guarding only like 50 wood or 60 food, it makes the treasure completely unviable to get.

The opposite is not true of say, the blowgunner guardian that guards 40 food or 2 bandit guarding 80 food cause every hero can melee that one and negate their damage and its range armour.

the indian hero has this problem as well

They both get stronger in the later game but in the early game on the new euro maps they basically cant treasure which is just unbalanced.

Its an early game problem so all that is needed is maybe to reduce the armour of those guardians, I dont mind if they have higher HP.
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Re: Treasure guardian exploit / "creeping"

Post by dansil92 »

that is a DE "variety for the sake of variety" issue more than anything
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