Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by wardyb1 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:
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I really doubt that. Viewership will be on DE, which is what funds tourney prizes, plus Microsoft definitely won't put money into EP tourneys after DE is released. You'll either have to play on DE if you want a shot at prize pool, or play on EP for no viewers and no money.
1. Why would viewership be on DE ? They won't really make the difference between EP (or DE patch) and DE.
2. MS won't put money into EP tourneys, that's for sure, but ESOC has been hosting tourneys for 5 years without MS.

Anyway, that's just speculation. We don't know how the balance will be on DE, but if it's trash (RE level), I have no doubt top players will stay on the EP (or go to a DE patch).
Viewership will be on DE for the same reason no one watches WOL. People want to watch the game they play. The game they know. People will play DE, they will want to see Inca and Sweden in games, they will want to learn the best strats for DE, see the meta for DE. All of this drives viewership. Why would people want to watch the 15yr old version that will have way less of a player base compared to the brand new game with new civs, with tech support from the devs? If there was an EP for Nilla, would people watch it? Probably not.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by Cometk »

chris1089 wrote:
Cometk wrote:aoe3:de should be receiving support, just the same as aoe2:de is currently receiving. that will include balance updates, which will be based on community feedback
I wasn't around when they did balance on the original game. But why would it necessarily get to a better point than then?
i'm not sure there was such a community apparatus of unified high level players with thousands of hours of experience actually playing the game as there was back then. a collective of players coming together to manage a fan patch for 5+ years that has significantly improved upon the balance of the game. DE has this framework to work off of, and the very easily accessible hub of info that is ESOC and the EP team.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by wardyb1 »

Cometk wrote:
chris1089 wrote:
Cometk wrote:aoe3:de should be receiving support, just the same as aoe2:de is currently receiving. that will include balance updates, which will be based on community feedback
I wasn't around when they did balance on the original game. But why would it necessarily get to a better point than then?
i'm not sure there was such a community apparatus of unified high level players with thousands of hours of experience actually playing the game as there was back then. a collective of players coming together to manage a fan patch for 5+ years that has significantly improved upon the balance of the game. DE has this framework to work off of, and the very easily accessible hub of info that is ESOC and the EP team.
Also RE came out in what 2009? A completely different time in the world of the internet.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by aligator92 »

I looked everywhere but cant find Aizamk. Which elifent are we talking about here?
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Viewership will be on DE for the same reason no one watches WOL.
Viewership is on the EP while people play on the RE though, so I don't get your point. No one watches WOL because noone cares about WOL lol.
People will play DE, they will want to see Inca and Sweden in games, they will want to learn the best strats for DE, see the meta for DE.
If it's a DE patch, then they'll still see Inca and Sweden. And I don't DE will totally change the meta, so the meta will probably be the same as on the RE/EP.
If there was an EP for Nilla, would people watch it? Probably not.
Yes. You seem to forget that before ESOC, nilla was more active than TAD. Top players switched to TAD because all the top players and tournaments were on TAD actually.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by forgrin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Viewership will be on DE for the same reason no one watches WOL.
Viewership is on the EP while people play on the RE though, so I don't get your point. No one watches WOL because noone cares about WOL lol.
People will play DE, they will want to see Inca and Sweden in games, they will want to learn the best strats for DE, see the meta for DE.
If it's a DE patch, then they'll still see Inca and Sweden. And I don't DE will totally change the meta, so the meta will probably be the same as on the RE/EP.
If there was an EP for Nilla, would people watch it? Probably not.
Yes. You seem to forget that before ESOC, nilla was more active than TAD. Top players switched to TAD because all the top players and tournaments were on TAD actually.
1. People watch EP matches because they're a bit similar to RE, or at least the audience has has enough time to get used to EP even if they don't play it. The difference between EP and DE though with 2 new civs plus whatever new balance changes would be too big I'd think.

2. There will be no DE patch at least until MS ends support, there is no reason for it as apparently ESOC has some influence. Plus there is plenty of reasons to just play out whatever the DE changes are to get a feeling for the new meta, anything else would be very preemptive.

3. The same thing will happen that you described with Nilla to EP players. Viewers and sponsors will be with DE which will draw top players there. I just don't see how EP would reasonably continue.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by helln00 »

I think there are 2 precedents of what can happen to ESOC and the ESOC patch post DE. First is what happened to AOE 2 and the other one is what happened to AOM.

1) AOE 2 represents the sort of near complete transfer of the old audience to the DE version, which I think was achieved by what is near continuous support and updates to the game, even if balance changes may take a while ( it took two months to fix op cumans and steppe lancers)

2) AOM represents the split scenario after they released the Extended addition, with balance changes, new civ and even new units to the old game. But due to split attention (since it was forgotten empires and they were also doing aoe 2) they didn't update the game frequently and left really unbalanced things in the game for a while, like until relatively recently they were fixed. As far as know, the "pro" scene for the game is still on voobly patch, which is still based of the old game and without any changes to the base civ and no china added.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Viewership will be on DE for the same reason no one watches WOL.
Viewership is on the EP while people play on the RE though, so I don't get your point. No one watches WOL because noone cares about WOL lol.
People will play DE, they will want to see Inca and Sweden in games, they will want to learn the best strats for DE, see the meta for DE.
If it's a DE patch, then they'll still see Inca and Sweden. And I don't DE will totally change the meta, so the meta will probably be the same as on the RE/EP.
If there was an EP for Nilla, would people watch it? Probably not.
Yes. You seem to forget that before ESOC, nilla was more active than TAD. Top players switched to TAD because all the top players and tournaments were on TAD actually.
1. People watch EP matches because they're a bit similar to RE, or at least the audience has has enough time to get used to EP even if they don't play it. The difference between EP and DE though with 2 new civs plus whatever new balance changes would be too big I'd think.

2. There will be no DE patch at least until MS ends support, there is no reason for it as apparently ESOC has some influence. Plus there is plenty of reasons to just play out whatever the DE changes are to get a feeling for the new meta, anything else would be very preemptive.

3. The same thing will happen that you described with Nilla to EP players. Viewers and sponsors will be with DE which will draw top players there. I just don't see how EP would reasonably continue.
1. As I said, it could be a DE patch, or ESOC could even add the Incas/Swedes to the EP if necessary.

2. If ESOC has some influence, then there is indeed no reason to stay on the EP. People will obviously test DE but it doesn't take years to get an opinion on the balance.

3. That's if DE is successful.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:
Show hidden quotes
1. People watch EP matches because they're a bit similar to RE, or at least the audience has has enough time to get used to EP even if they don't play it. The difference between EP and DE though with 2 new civs plus whatever new balance changes would be too big I'd think.

2. There will be no DE patch at least until MS ends support, there is no reason for it as apparently ESOC has some influence. Plus there is plenty of reasons to just play out whatever the DE changes are to get a feeling for the new meta, anything else would be very preemptive.

3. The same thing will happen that you described with Nilla to EP players. Viewers and sponsors will be with DE which will draw top players there. I just don't see how EP would reasonably continue.
1. As I said, it could be a DE patch, or ESOC could even add the Incas/Swedes to the EP if necessary.

2. If ESOC has some influence, then there is indeed no reason to stay on the EP. People will obviously test DE but it doesn't take years to get an opinion on the balance.

3. That's if DE is successful.
1. Assuming Inca and Sweden would be implementable in ESOC patch. God knows in what ways the devs tinkered with the game and what mechanics they introduced. For all we know they added stuff like invisible buildings, which would be a pain to port to ESOC, to say the least.

2. Unless you like first-timers whining about Swedish mercspam being op for 6 months for no actual reason other than "i cant use spies, waaaah" helping people decide on whether or not DE is good

3. Why wouldn't it be? For RE players it's RE but 10x more amazing and properly balanced(hopefully). Only downside is the requirements which would force many players to tone down graphics to be able to play.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ShinkuroYukinari wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes
1. As I said, it could be a DE patch, or ESOC could even add the Incas/Swedes to the EP if necessary.

2. If ESOC has some influence, then there is indeed no reason to stay on the EP. People will obviously test DE but it doesn't take years to get an opinion on the balance.

3. That's if DE is successful.
1. Assuming Inca and Sweden would be implementable in ESOC patch. God knows in what ways the devs tinkered with the game and what mechanics they introduced. For all we know they added stuff like invisible buildings, which would be a pain to port to ESOC, to say the least.

2. Unless you like first-timers whining about Swedish mercspam being op for 6 months for no actual reason other than "i cant use spies, waaaah" helping people decide on whether or not DE is good

3. Why wouldn't it be? For RE players it's RE but 10x more amazing and properly balanced(hopefully). Only downside is the requirements which would force many players to tone down graphics to be able to play.
2. If Sweden and Incas are op then it's not a big deal, we can just ban these civs from tourneys. If Spain/Port aren't buffed and Iro/Otto aren't nerfed however, we don't need a lot of time to understand whether the game is balanced or not lol.

3. If it's properly balanced then it will be sucessful. My whole point is that top players would stay on the EP if we got RE balance or worse.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

ShinkuroYukinari wrote: 1. Assuming Inca and Sweden would be implementable in ESOC patch. God knows in what ways the devs tinkered with the game and what mechanics they introduced.
Yeah I don't see that happening. If there is ever another community patch, it would need to start off DE.
But my hope is that we can all be unified on a superior DE official patch maintained by Microsoft, leaving all the REs and EPs behind forever.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by TNT333 »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
ShinkuroYukinari wrote: 1. Assuming Inca and Sweden would be implementable in ESOC patch. God knows in what ways the devs tinkered with the game and what mechanics they introduced.
Yeah I don't see that happening. If there is ever another community patch, it would need to start off DE.
But my hope is that we can all be unified on a superior DE official patch maintained by Microsoft, leaving all the REs and EPs behind forever.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by thomasgreen6 »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
ShinkuroYukinari wrote: 1. Assuming Inca and Sweden would be implementable in ESOC patch. God knows in what ways the devs tinkered with the game and what mechanics they introduced.
Yeah I don't see that happening. If there is ever another community patch, it would need to start off DE.
But my hope is that we can all be unified on a superior DE official patch maintained by Microsoft, leaving all the REs and EPs behind forever.
I think people need to give the devs a chance too. Correct me if I'm wrong but in Aoe2 DE a lot of the bnalance issues and mechanics at launch were fixed even if it took a while to get there
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by blackout »

Can't wait for all the crying about balance when DE is released. Gona be awesome
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by iNcog »

Yeah ESOC itself is going absolutely nowhere for sure.

The patch however, I think, won't be relevant in DE.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by Ashvin »

@chris1089 congrats on the role. Hope you will enjoy it :)
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by lemmings121 »

Hopefully we will not need a fanpatch for DE.

Creating fan patches is a last resort, I consider that creating it for aoe3 was good, because the game would be dead otherwise, but it should be avoided at all costs if possible as it splits the community.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by gibson »

I expect balance to be pretty not good at the start but it will improve I'm sure.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by chris1089 »

Ashvin wrote:@chris1089 congrats on the role. Hope you will enjoy it :)
Thanks @Ashvin
Let's stay on the topic of the future of ESOC patch.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by Sputnik »

There will be new players which are coming from aoe 2 most likely. At least for the first couple of months people will try aoe 3 de. I saw viper was saying something like that in his stream. Therefore i wouldn't be surprised if the pool that contains pr 30+ players have an increase and most of them will have no idea about EP. Thus, i don't think EP will be a thing at least for the first couple of months, which honestly i think is good overall. Right now EP is too complicated
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by harcha »

Yeah theviper said he would play aoe3de a lot and go 100% swe
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by TheNameDaniel »

I don't really care if the balance is bad, people complain that ep balance is bad so its irrelevant. I will 100% switch to DE no matter what due to dedicated servers and quality of life improvements.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by aaryngend »

aligator92 wrote:I looked everywhere but cant find Aizamk. Which elifent are we talking about here?
"The Elephant in the room" is a popular figure of speech.
He just replaced Elephant with Elifant to honour Aiz for the lulz.
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

Post by aligator92 »

aaryngend wrote:
aligator92 wrote:I looked everywhere but cant find Aizamk. Which elifent are we talking about here?
"The Elephant in the room" is a popular figure of speech.
He just replaced Elephant with Elifant to honour Aiz for the lulz.
Not entirely sure if you are trolling here :D If not: duh
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Re: Elifant in the room: the role and future of ESOC Patch on DE

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Post by gibson »

TheNameDaniel wrote:I don't really care if the balance is bad, people complain that ep balance is bad so its irrelevant. I will 100% switch to DE no matter what due to dedicated servers and quality of life improvements.
Same, even if the balance is worse than re I'll still be playing DE instead.

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