China vs Sweden

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China vs Sweden

Post by helln00 »

How is this match up working so far? I am not that good but from the matches I have had as China so far it feels kinda map dependent.

On a map with 1 gold mine in base I feel like I can send pikes or steppe to raid their eco while either aging up or building eco for an age 2 fight cause so far cnk seems to trade relatively well vs caroleans. If there are 2 gold in base the swede age 2 feels super powerful with the leather cannons in the formation and they can charge in melee and just kill chinese units outright.
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Singapore Thrar
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by Thrar »

As China I feel this is extremely lopsided in Sweden's favor. Caroleans in melee seem to shred everything including CKN, changdao, and arquebus when moving out onto the map, and they're too fast to kite for more than one or two volleys. Staying in base on the other hand isn't viable for China either because the Swedish economy is just better.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by helln00 »

Yeah caroleans in melee are a death sentence for china, though I guess since their melee dont have bonus against cav it might be counterable? I definitely dont think old han or territorial army are good against a carolean composition
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by Inst »

How is Standard Army working for you? And tried the new flamethrowers yet?
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by helln00 »

standard army "works" but I think requires the hitpoint card + consulate (mostly trying germany now to make it more cost effective) and havent manage to get flamethrowers into a yet but since they count as infantry I imagine they would be hard countered by leather cannons
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by gibson »

I feel like China should do decently if they donā€™t get caught out vs carolean too early. Seems like China cav with 3x skirms in the back should do well.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by fei123456 »

Colonial push is the way. Don't lose too many units to 2 cannons, and old han with 3 shipments destroy Sweden.
FF is viable, but you should use confucian academy+british ally, and push early in age 3. Forbidden army+arquebusier+redcoat is still powerful combo.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by Inst »

@Thrar

If you have a problem with Carolean melee and you're Fortress, just get Forbidden or Imperial Army. Caroleans don't have bonuses against cavalry in melee, only in ranged, and what's more, Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers get completely absurd ranged resistance when upgraded with Mirror Armor, on the order of 41% or so.

The Iron Flails, of course, will eventually get squashed, but if you have Imperial Army for Arquebusiers in your back lines, they'll be able to attrit down the Caroleans.

I'm still wondering though how well flamethrowers with a cavalry shield work against Caroleans, though. The decapping of flamethrowers should allow them to deal decent damage, but since Caroleans want to get into melee, and flamethrowers don't want to get into melee, you'd need cavalry to block off the Caroleans.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by n0el »

I donā€™t this is a hard mu for China. Skirm / sword once you get the upgrades just wins hard imo.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by Thrar »

An imperial army costs about as much as 7 caroleans. 4 caroleans (in age 2!) handily beat 2 iron flails in melee and meanwhile the other 3 can swarm and massacre the arquebus. A forbidden army costs even more, 8 caroleans, and does just as poorly. With their 0.3 melee resist vs 0 melee resist on the China cav, caroleans can engage in melee even without multiplier and do fine.

I don't think this changes much if you mass more, the caroleans just have a numbers advantage and are stronger in melee than anything China has.
n0el wrote:I donā€™t this is a hard mu for China. Skirm / sword once you get the upgrades just wins hard imo.
Are you speaking from experience or theorycrafting?

Aging up with the confucian academy for 8 arquebus, then shipping arquebus and changdao while making 3 batches, I find that I can engage at roughly even numbers if Sweden goes full caroleans. Over time that gets worse since Sweden's eco is better and the Chinese TP should go down while aging up so shipments are slow to come.
At even numbers I don't think China stands a chance unless holed up in base. Half the caroleans deal with the changdao, the other half tears apart the arquebus. Age 2 caroleans kill age 3 changdao in 9 melee hits while the changdao need 15 hits in return. Arquebus get 2 volleys at range, then become sitting ducks to the other half of the caroleans.

I would appreciate any videos, VODs, or recordings showing China not getting constrained to their base or overwhelmed by caroleans in the field, between players of equal skill and a Swedish player who isn't completely new to the civ.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by n0el »

@Thrar ill get you a replay or two
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by fei123456 »

You need cavs tho. Skirm+sword beats pure carolean, but Sweden should have cannons, jaegers, etc.
Forbidden army are quite tanky vs caroleans, and they counters the probable cannons/jaegers hard. And, of course, they can snare so that caroleans can't escape with melee mode boost.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by Kawapasaka »

Looks like fortress composition isn't the problem so much as containing the boom. Colo China lacks the 2 decent age 2 methods of dealing with artillery (flanking with tanky generalist cav or right clicking with 50 musks) so I don't think that's an option. Then Swede's fast age presents a much smaller window to an aggro Chinese FF than e.g. a VC brit FF would. As for FI'ing I'm not sure that outscales a full Swede boom (definitely doesn't outscale Japs for comparison) and it seems they have no problem putting together 50+ musks + 4 falcs + 3 culvs pretty quickly, which is very hard for a FI to deal with.
Villages are nice vs Carolean raids at least (but they really need to nerf the siege on things lol).

Also you should probably cut Manchus for Hand Mortars instead of the usual cutting Iron Troops.
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Re: China vs Sweden

Post by helln00 »

yeah containing the boom is what I'm trying to figure out. maybe should just be more agressive with forward villages and pike/steppe timings but I do feel like if swede can have 6 torps on gold in base like on yukon for example it doesn't work

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