It does but then why would you make cav?big_bada wrote:hmm does the fact a guy on a horse take an arrow in the face doesn't make more cense than cav running straight to lbs for exemple without dying ?SoldieR wrote:Playing 20ngames of aoe2, crossbows directly clutner knights, so why even care? Lol. Really don't understand aoe2 counter system logic and they say our makes no sense
Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
because of the number i guess ? idk. Tho in aoe2 bows fail a lot of shoot.[Armag] diarouga wrote:It does but then why would you make cav?big_bada wrote:hmm does the fact a guy on a horse take an arrow in the face doesn't make more cense than cav running straight to lbs for exemple without dying ?SoldieR wrote:Playing 20ngames of aoe2, crossbows directly clutner knights, so why even care? Lol. Really don't understand aoe2 counter system logic and they say our makes no sense
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Yeah the reason is probably because archers are well-rounded units in AoE2 whereas they have a direct counter here. In AoE2 if you have 20 xbows and you see like 8 knights it's whatever, you'll probably break even, but in AoE3 your army's about to get wiped.
I wonder, what would you think if someone says "played 20 games of AoE3 and the counter system makes no sense"?
Assuming you meant to say "counter", that's not true. Xbows only counter knights in chokepoints. In the open field knights have an edge, until late game where paladins wreck arbalests.SoldieR wrote:Playing 20ngames of aoe2, crossbows directly clutner knights, so why even care? Lol. Really don't understand aoe2 counter system logic and they say our makes no sense
I wonder, what would you think if someone says "played 20 games of AoE3 and the counter system makes no sense"?
- harcha
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
I'd say "read the in-game unit descriptions pls"
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Everytime ive seen daut play french he always overspams goons
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
They are just playing the game for fun since both got knocked out of kotd3 in first round. I doubt they will commit to aoe3 so no the point in tryharding.
- UpMySleeves
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
They really not taking the game serious, just trying to have some fun, take a break from tryharding aoe2. Daut actually seems to have decent game knowledge still, yet one stream he was spamming pure Uhlans every game. It also seems like they're playing lower skilled players, so it barely matters what units they're making, since they have good mechanics.
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, never drive a car when you're dead
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Well he's saying that because Spirit of the law made a video where he said that the aoe3 counter system doesn't make sense.Goodspeed wrote:Yeah the reason is probably because archers are well-rounded units in AoE2 whereas they have a direct counter here. In AoE2 if you have 20 xbows and you see like 8 knights it's whatever, you'll probably break even, but in AoE3 your army's about to get wiped.Assuming you meant to say "counter", that's not true. Xbows only counter knights in chokepoints. In the open field knights have an edge, until late game where paladins wreck arbalests.SoldieR wrote:Playing 20ngames of aoe2, crossbows directly clutner knights, so why even care? Lol. Really don't understand aoe2 counter system logic and they say our makes no sense
I wonder, what would you think if someone says "played 20 games of AoE3 and the counter system makes no sense"?
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Sure. He wouldn't be the first AoE2 player who said some dumb shit about AoE3. Then again, I get the sentiment. It's not intuitive for goons to have a multiplier against heavy cav, for skirms to have a multiplier against musks, for archers to have a negative multiplier against cav, etc.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
They're kind of right, theoretically. Assuming aoe would be completely "mastered" by AI, I think it would be always both making skirm-goons. However, higher skirm count would always win in this case. Therefore, outcome would be both 100% skirms, however then heavy cavalry would actually have a swinging effect. But because goon-type is so op vs heavy cav, adding goon after some hus switch would win easily res-wise.
Therefore, if there's no incentive to do any hus (assuming your opponent responds perfectly) it would be a pure skirm war.
Surely, arti mixes this all up a little.
In reality with imperfect information you can't rely having perfect goon timings, meaning people automatically mix goon. Even if opponent wouldn't make a single hus anyway (and because they can kill falcs)
Therefore, if there's no incentive to do any hus (assuming your opponent responds perfectly) it would be a pure skirm war.
Surely, arti mixes this all up a little.
In reality with imperfect information you can't rely having perfect goon timings, meaning people automatically mix goon. Even if opponent wouldn't make a single hus anyway (and because they can kill falcs)
- Imperial Noob
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
It is though... skirmishing tactics worked great against British redcoats in the 13 Colonies Insurrection, where the British had to either fire a full salvo on a handful of ducking human targets, or let themselves be extremely demoralized by constant enemy sniping shots without any way of retaliation.Goodspeed wrote:Sure. He wouldn't be the first AoE2 player who said some dumb shit about AoE3. Then again, I get the sentiment. It's not intuitive for goons to have a multiplier against heavy cav, for skirms to have a multiplier against musks, for archers to have a negative multiplier against cav, etc.
Light cavalry outran, tired, and arrowed heavy cavalry in:
1) Achaemenid Persia
2) Ancient Rome
3) Ancient and medieval China
4) anywhere else the Mongols went
5) Early Modern Eastern Europe, where the Tatars were
Later in western Europe (for example the Napoleonic wars) and in the US Civil War cavalry with guns always had an advantage over cavalry with only melee weapons.
As for the negative archer multipliers, a horse can take many arrows and still keep charging. In World War One horses sometimes ran even with their guts out. Moreover, cavalry usually scared the shit out of infantrymen, with many missing or otherwise being ineffective.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
i respect that playstyleHazza54321 wrote:Everytime ive seen daut play french he always overspams goons
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
I can't say which counters make sense. Like javelin throwing unit countering archers or dragoons countering hussars.Goodspeed wrote:Sure. He wouldn't be the first AoE2 player who said some dumb shit about AoE3. Then again, I get the sentiment. It's not intuitive for goons to have a multiplier against heavy cav, for skirms to have a multiplier against musks, for archers to have a negative multiplier against cav, etc.
But information about counters is readily accessible in Aoe3 as compared to aoe2.
I remember when I had started playing Aoe2 many years back, information about counters was difficult to get. One of my friend who was very good l, was the go to guy for asking about counters about some seemingly unbeatable or unique unit. Like massed longbowmen on blackforest or playing aztec against massed scorpions. In retrospect it seems trivial. But the information we got from ui was camels or pike good against cavalry, skirm good against archers. But no exact info about how much bonus damage. Today there are mods to display these in game. And information in general in better known because of sites or YouTube.
When I played my first few games of Aoe3. I was already able to make out easily what counters what and is weak to what. It's all there. I could figure out what unit compositions I should make, by myself.
- harcha
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Pros from other games are not fully familiar with which units are best, which compositions are standard and what to expect from your opponent, so it's natural that they might have weird quirks or just spam 1 unit until they learn what counters what and what the opponent is making.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
As an AoE2 'decent' player, when playing vs the American civs its very hard to know what counters what as all of their stuff is on foot (infantry), therefore no cav, therefore full skirm should be best.
Now I know this isn't the case but that isn't intuitive to new players.
Now I know this isn't the case but that isn't intuitive to new players.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Ye I had hard time understanding how the Aztec units work when I switched to TAD. At first I thought that they didn't have cav.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Ye I remember that even when I was 1st Lt there was the odd guy who would go skirm/cannon and be surprised when I lost very little of my army with 25 coyotes in it.[Armag] diarouga wrote:Ye I had hard time understanding how the Aztec units work when I switched to TAD. At first I thought that they didn't have cav.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
The micro in age 2 and age 3 is way different. In Age 3 u usually fight with large armies while in age 2 you don't. On top of that, there are hill bonuses and strong defensive buildings while not having snare. These reasons make slow melee units less efficient.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
The javelin throwing unit has a shield to block arrows with. Seems intuitive to medrsingh wrote:I can't say which counters make sense. Like javelin throwing unit countering archers or dragoons countering hussars.Goodspeed wrote:Sure. He wouldn't be the first AoE2 player who said some dumb shit about AoE3. Then again, I get the sentiment. It's not intuitive for goons to have a multiplier against heavy cav, for skirms to have a multiplier against musks, for archers to have a negative multiplier against cav, etc.
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
not rly intuitive ngl
in a spirit of the law video he was trying to make a point by showing units from aoe2 and aoe3 and asking which countered which and I was 0/3 on aoe2, and he's like "see it's much ezier in aoe2."
in a spirit of the law video he was trying to make a point by showing units from aoe2 and aoe3 and asking which countered which and I was 0/3 on aoe2, and he's like "see it's much ezier in aoe2."
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Ye not intuitive, I didn't understand it at first.
Arrows are simply more effective than a javelin at range, while the javelin also has a use in melee. So intuitively, the javelin would be worse than a bowman at range, and better in hand combat, just like musks with their bayonets.
Arrows are simply more effective than a javelin at range, while the javelin also has a use in melee. So intuitively, the javelin would be worse than a bowman at range, and better in hand combat, just like musks with their bayonets.
- PancakePrincess
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
Longswordsman also have shields though and are bad against archer. Huskarls on the other hand do carry shields and are good against archers again. The list goes on and on...Goodspeed wrote:The javelin throwing unit has a shield to block arrows with. Seems intuitive to medrsingh wrote:I can't say which counters make sense. Like javelin throwing unit countering archers or dragoons countering hussars.Goodspeed wrote:Sure. He wouldn't be the first AoE2 player who said some dumb shit about AoE3. Then again, I get the sentiment. It's not intuitive for goons to have a multiplier against heavy cav, for skirms to have a multiplier against musks, for archers to have a negative multiplier against cav, etc.
In all honesty, this whole debate on intuitiveness that plagues RTS communities is pointless imo. No RTS counter system will just "click" for beginners, since RTS games are hard by nature and have a lot of intricacies which gets even more convoluted if you take micro techniques into account. There's also an individual component based on pre-existing knowledge in regards to what makes sense and what doesn't.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
That only goes for the Aztec tbh, I mean you have to be pretty blind if you don't know which units are cav for the Sioux (now Lakota) and Iroquois (now Haudenosaunee)robo wrote:As an AoE2 'decent' player, when playing vs the American civs its very hard to know what counters what as all of their stuff is on foot (infantry), therefore no cav, therefore full skirm should be best.
Now I know this isn't the case but that isn't intuitive to new players.
Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
how about inca?
- vividlyplain
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Re: Why don't pros from other games make anticav?
but you also need to know that rifle riders dumpster heavy infantry (and boats)aaryngend wrote:That only goes for the Aztec tbh, I mean you have to be pretty blind if you don't know which units are cav for the Sioux (now Lakota) and Iroquois (now Haudenosaunee)robo wrote:As an AoE2 'decent' player, when playing vs the American civs its very hard to know what counters what as all of their stuff is on foot (infantry), therefore no cav, therefore full skirm should be best.
Now I know this isn't the case but that isn't intuitive to new players.
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